The church has spoken...

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

in a nutshell:

If gay were a choice (someone decides to live a gay lifestyle)....then why would they then commit suicide? Why not simply choose to be straight and live happily ever after?

I won't argue that gay orientation is volitional or primarily volitional, but your analogy or logic is faulty.

People can make choices which ultimately lead to unhappiness. Remember the stories of the Great Depression, where those who lost everything jumped out of buildings, are you saying that they didn't make choices involving that? Of course, the fact somebody does or does not commit suicide does not aid us in understanding this phenomenon.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

in a nutshell:

If gay were a choice (someone decides to live a gay lifestyle)....then why would they then commit suicide? Why not simply choose to be straight and live happily ever after?

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

Awkward or not, it goes right to the core of your "being gay is a choice" mindset.

No, it doesn't. Again, people make all kinds of irrational and illogical choices. People struggle with anger, depression, alcoholism, and an assortment of other challenges for which there are no easy explanations. There are even some people who just plain choose to be unhappy.

The allusion that all choices and all circumstances have logical and reasonable explanations except the choice to be gay is totally untenable.

[OrangeUte]

Originally Posted by Tex

No, it doesn't. Again, people make all kinds of irrational and illogical choices. People struggle with anger, depression, alcoholism, and an assortment of other challenges for which there are no easy explanations. There are even some people who just plain choose to be unhappy.

The allusion that all choices and all circumstances have logical and reasonable explanations except the choice to be gay is totally untenable.

I love how you equate same gender attraction with "anger, depression, alcoholism, and an assortment of other challenges"... and then you imply that all are an irrational or illogical choice You are incredible and unbelievable.

[TripletDaddy]

Originally Posted by Archaea

I won't argue that gay orientation is volitional or primarily volitional, but your analogy or logic is faulty.

People can make choices which ultimately lead to unhappiness. Remember the stories of the Great Depression, where those who lost everything jumped out of buildings, are you saying that they didn't make choices involving that? Of course, the fact somebody does or does not commit suicide does not aid us in understanding this phenomenon.

first, i did say it was a nutshell, not fleshed out.

but in another nutshell....

gays commit suicide over their homosexuality because they CANT change it, they were born that way.

Stock brokers jumping off ledges are doing so not out of genetic disposition. If you took that same stock broker and handed him a bag of money, he would come off the ledge and be ok.

There is no comparable "bag of money" you can hand a despondent gay person to get them off the ledge.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by OrangeUte

I love how you equate same gender attraction with "anger, depression, alcoholism, and an assortment of other challenges"... and then you imply that all are an irrational or illogical choice You are incredible and unbelievable.

I am not "equating" it with anything. Those examples are similar in that they are things people struggle with, some of them quite severely. And often they don't make sense. The people who suffer from those things often cannot explain why, and family and friends struggle to make sense of it all.

Same-sex attraction is similar in this way, but it is not "equal" to anger or depression. How would someone even come up with such a metric?

[cougarobgon]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

first, i did say it was a nutshell, not fleshed out.

but in another nutshell....

gays commit suicide over their homosexuality because they CANT change it, they were born that way.

Stock brokers jumping off ledges are doing so not out of genetic disposition. If you took that same stock broker and handed him a bag of money, he would come off the ledge and be ok.

There is no comparable "bag of money" you can hand a despondent gay person to get them off the ledge.

So, do you believe all men living gay lifestyles were born gay? or Would you concede some have chosen to live such a lifestyle for other reasons?

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by TripletDaddy

first, i did say it was a nutshell, not fleshed out.

but in another nutshell....

gays commit suicide over their homosexuality because they CANT change it, they were born that way.

Stock brokers jumping off ledges are doing so not out of genetic disposition. If you took that same stock broker and handed him a bag of money, he would come off the ledge and be ok.

There is no comparable "bag of money" you can hand a despondent gay person to get them off the ledge.

My only point, your suicide analogy didn't prove anything. Use a different analysis.

[OrangeUte]

Originally Posted by Tex

I am not "equating" it with anything. Those examples are similar in that they are things people struggle with, some of them quite severely. And often they don't make sense. The people who suffer from those things often cannot explain why, and family and friends struggle to make sense of it all.

Same-sex attraction is similar in this way, but it is not "equal" to anger or depression. How would someone even come up with such a metric?

you tell me. you seem to think that they are similar enough to make the comparison.

[OrangeUte]

Originally Posted by cougarobgon

So, do you believe all men living gay lifestyles were born gay? or Would you concede some have chosen to live such a lifestyle for other reasons?

i will concede that it is a slightly mixed bag, but i believe that most gay people are born gay, just like most heterosexuals are born that way. however, there are some gay people who "act" heterosexual for whatever reason, and there are some heterosexual people who act gay for whatever reason. it's a mixed bag, but, in my opinion, these exceptions are rare.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by OrangeUte

you tell me. you seem to think that they are similar enough to make the comparison.

I think they are similar in the ways I have already outlined.