Devastating news from Iraq. - Page 2 - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

MikeWaters · 05-27-2006, 01:58 AM

Afghanistan already is oblivion. How do you send people back to the stone age, that are already living in the stone age?

il Padrino Ute · 05-27-2006, 02:07 AM

True. I tend to forget that.

Ok, how about we push them down and steal their soccer ball?

MikeWaters · 05-27-2006, 02:22 AM

remember that they used their soccer stadium for public executions. Severed head, soccer ball, same thing.

il Padrino Ute · 05-27-2006, 02:26 AM

It would seem taht there isn't much more we could do to them that they already haven't done to themselves.

What if we nuke France? We'd have to get myboynoah and his family out first, but I'd be for that.

danimal · 05-27-2006, 02:55 AM

I agree that it is horrific and very problematic. And I dislike the war and Bush as much as the next guy. But this is a case of stupid soldiers. There have always been stupid soldiers and there always will be. Obviously the administration's approach to torture and such have not helped some of their behavior, but I don't think these actions can be blamed on the administration. It's the cost of sending 18 year-olds to fight with guns.

MikeWaters · 05-27-2006, 03:23 AM

it is hard to argue that the administrations pro-torture arguments had nothing to do with the "liberties" that were taken at Abu Ghraib. They created a general culture of "toughness" that has led to the atrocities/embarrassments of A.G.

Apparently, after this latest incident, the brass felt that the soldiers needed to be reoriented. Whether this was to correct inadequate training, or just to bolster ongoing training, I have no idea.

Another area of concern is the coverup. If there is a pattern of coverups by the brass, that is tacit permission to commit atrocities. No evidence of this, but something worthy of investigation.

SoCalCoug · 06-01-2006, 07:53 AM

The funny thing is, I remember during the election buildup in 2000, Bush in his debates against Gore repeatedly spoke against nation-building. Boy, how that tune has changed.

I know, 9/11 changed everything. Sometimes, though, I think people just use that as an excuse.

Cali Coug · 06-01-2006, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoCalCoug

The funny thing is, I remember during the election buildup in 2000, Bush in his debates against Gore repeatedly spoke against nation-building. Boy, how that tune has changed.

I know, 9/11 changed everything. Sometimes, though, I think people just use that as an excuse.

I can't imagine there is much from the presidential debates that isn't embarrassing to Bush right now. Fiscal responsibility, no nation building, establish alternate fuel sources...

Zulu451 · 06-05-2006, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

In fact, talk of "winning" the fight against the insurgency has completely been abandoned. At this point, I don't know that we even have a definition of a win. Lack of civil war and many years until development of a WOMD is a win perhaps.

We have completely underestimated the difficulty of nation building. Of rolling back millenia of hate, bloodshed, and tradition. How did we become so arrogant? Perhaps is to our credit that we are so foolhardy, so naive, so willing to take on this Quixotic task of reshaping the world with our swords.

Bush (senior) caught a lot of flack from people when he did not topple Saddam back in GWI. Now with the aid of a "retrospectascope" we see that daddy was quite a bit smarter than junior and are observing first hand what would have happened back then had we done so. Senior had a lot more foresight than junior and knew the ramifications and that even with a large NATO coalition and a ton of US troops already in the area they didn't have the necessary tools to rebuild a nation of psychotic muslims.

Our analysis was wrong from the conception of the term WMD. The only reason why we have seen some success (if one can call it that) is b/c of the individuals over there.

It is sad to see the tolls of this war, and believe me it is and will be a high price to pay for decades to come. Politically it has left us with no international credibility, or even credibility with the people here in the US. Especially now that there is a real threat looming with Iran. Had Saddam had nukes, and stock piles of chemical weapons, it would have been worth it. Now, Bush looks like an idiot trying to cover his tracks.

05-27-2006, 02:07 AM	#12
il Padrino Ute Board Pinhead Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: In the basement of my house, Murray, Utah. Posts: 15,941	True. I tend to forget that. Ok, how about we push them down and steal their soccer ball? __________________ "The beauty of baseball is not having to explain it." - Chuck Shriver "This is now the joke that stupid people laugh at." - Christopher Hitchens on IQ jokes about GWB.

05-27-2006, 02:26 AM	#14
il Padrino Ute Board Pinhead Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: In the basement of my house, Murray, Utah. Posts: 15,941	It would seem taht there isn't much more we could do to them that they already haven't done to themselves. What if we nuke France? We'd have to get myboynoah and his family out first, but I'd be for that. __________________ "The beauty of baseball is not having to explain it." - Chuck Shriver "This is now the joke that stupid people laugh at." - Christopher Hitchens on IQ jokes about GWB.

05-27-2006, 02:55 AM	#15
danimal Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Your mom's house Posts: 588	I agree that it is horrific and very problematic. And I dislike the war and Bush as much as the next guy. But this is a case of stupid soldiers. There have always been stupid soldiers and there always will be. Obviously the administration's approach to torture and such have not helped some of their behavior, but I don't think these actions can be blamed on the administration. It's the cost of sending 18 year-olds to fight with guns. __________________ Tobias: You know, Lindsay, as a therapist, I have advised a number of couples to explore an open relationship where the couple remains emotionally committed, but free to explore extra-marital encounters. Lindsay: Well, did it work for those people? Tobias: No, it never does. I mean, these people somehow delude themselves into thinking it might, but...but it might work for us.

06-01-2006, 07:53 AM	#17
SoCalCoug Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Orange County, California Posts: 3,059	The funny thing is, I remember during the election buildup in 2000, Bush in his debates against Gore repeatedly spoke against nation-building. Boy, how that tune has changed. I know, 9/11 changed everything. Sometimes, though, I think people just use that as an excuse. __________________ Get your stinking paws off me, you damned, dirty Yewt! "Now perhaps as I spanked myself screaming out "Kozlowski, say it like you mean it bitch!" might have been out of line, but such was the mood." - Goatnapper "If you want to fatten a pig up to make the pig MORE delicious, you can feed it almost anything. Seriously. The pig is like the car on Back to the Future. You put in garbage, and out comes something magical!" - Cali Coug

05-27-2006, 01:58 AM	#11
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	Afghanistan already is oblivion. How do you send people back to the stone age, that are already living in the stone age?

05-27-2006, 02:22 AM	#13
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	remember that they used their soccer stadium for public executions. Severed head, soccer ball, same thing.

05-27-2006, 03:23 AM	#16
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	it is hard to argue that the administrations pro-torture arguments had nothing to do with the "liberties" that were taken at Abu Ghraib. They created a general culture of "toughness" that has led to the atrocities/embarrassments of A.G. Apparently, after this latest incident, the brass felt that the soldiers needed to be reoriented. Whether this was to correct inadequate training, or just to bolster ongoing training, I have no idea. Another area of concern is the coverup. If there is a pattern of coverups by the brass, that is tacit permission to commit atrocities. No evidence of this, but something worthy of investigation.