Was there a Great Apostasy?

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

I read "The Great Apostasy" on my mission. Even as a brain washed young pup I was shocked at how poorly written it was, and the facile dismissal of two thousand years of history, and crude anti-Catholicism. I read "Jesus the Christ," and it has left almost no impression on me at all. This is unusual, because as you may have noted, when I take the time to read a complicated book I usually drill down, spend time reading it, remember lines, rearead passages, etc. It becomes a part of me. All I remember about Jesus the Christ is that it was extremely derivative when it didn't engage in flights of fancy about events for which there is no legitimate historical record at all.

There are many Mormon scholars like B.H. Roberts, Henry Eyring, Rex Lee, and Sterlign McMurrin for which I have a lot of respect. From what I've seen, Talmage was a pretender.

Are you shocked at crude Anti-Mormonism?

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Are you shocked at crude Anti-Mormonism?

I'm not usually impressed with or intertested in any internicene feuds within monotheism (except the ones long ago that were accompanied by swords and lances, etc.). So, no, I find the meat ax like Talmage used equally unintresting when wielded at Mormons by rival religious groups.

[All-American]

Originally Posted by Archaea

The Catholics lose me when their authorities can't really say who the first pope was, Leo or Clement.

But the thought all good was lost is the primary thought which ultimately conveyed by many Mormons when they use the term "Great Apostasy."

Well, I'm not afraid to reject that notion as blatantly false. But I don't think that thought was ever the church's official position on the apostasy. It's been a while since I read Talmage's book, but I don't remember even him being THAT absolutist.

[HighHorse]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

But though Tom Paine was an atheist, he was a product of the civilization that Christianity in many respects created.

One correction: Thomas Paine was not an atheist. He was a deist. He spoke of God often but he didn't limit God to the definitions in the Bible. He claimed no knowledge of who or what God is, he but believed in a supreme being.

Paine was a product of the false Christian Dogmas taught in his era. He simply couldn't fall for the same stuff that Joseph Smith failed to grasp a generation later.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by HighHorse

One correction: Thomas Paine was not an atheist. He was a deist. He spoke of God often but he didn't limit God to the definitions in the Bible. He claimed no knowledge of who or what God is, he but believed in a supreme being.

Paine was a product of the false Christian Dogmas taught in his era. He simply couldn't fall for the same stuff that Joseph Smith failed to grasp a generation later.

For one thing, as has been discussed here before, I don't think there's really much practical difference between atheists, deists, or agnostics, except for self-identification maybe for political purposes.

Paine was hard core atheist. He loathed Christianity, whatever gloss you want to put on it, thought the Bible was a fable. Back then, that meant you were an atheist, as atheist as it got.

Seriously, can you give me a quote where he invokes God?

[BlueHair]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

For one thing, as has been discussed here before, I don't think there's really much practical difference between atheists, deists, or agnostics, except for self-identification maybe for political purposes.

Paine was hard core atheist. He loathed Christianity, whatever gloss you want to put on it, thought the Bible was a fable. Back then, that meant you were an atheist, as atheist as it got.

Seriously, can you give me a quote where he invokes God?

Paine did not like any organized religion. However, I will take him at his word when he said he believed in God. Here is a quote from The Age of Reason: " I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life". That doesn't sound like an atheist to me.

He also has some great views on revelation.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by HighHorse

Paine was a product of the false Christian Dogmas taught in his era. He simply couldn't fall for the same stuff that Joseph Smith failed to grasp a generation later.

Where do you get this nonsensical chauvensim? Paine would not have been interested in Mormonism's magic world view. He'd have been hostile to it if it affected his life at all. Actually, the founders' atheism or deism or whatever you want to call it was indispensable to their fitness to accomplish the radical and brilliant reforms achieved.