Excommunication

[ERCougar]

Originally Posted by Indy Coug

Is it really that binary? I think we've amply discussed in this forum that the reason(s) for excommunication often go well beyond helping the sinner repent. Helping the sinner repent is indeed one legitimate reason for excommunication, but there are plenty of other reasons to formally sever the ties between a particularly wayward member and the church.

1) I don't think it helps the sinner repent. It's certainly not a necessary step to help the sinner repent.
2) I'd love to hear another reason (out of the "plenty") to formally sever the ties between the church and a member who desires to change his/her life.

[ERCougar]

Originally Posted by Archaea

Kicking them out for crimes is almost a legal requisite.

Most members don't commit crimes, but all members commit sin.

I still don't think you have to kick them out of the church--just keep them out of certain positions. This isn't that difficult, and is necessary even when they are excommunicated (in order to prevent them from being rebaptized and called to these positions).

[ERCougar]

Originally Posted by Tex

It is God who has instructed the men in a disciplinary council to do what it is they do.

Sorry...I don't believe this. I don't doubt their intentions to sincerely help the person, but I don't believe in a God who turns his back on a sinner who wants to be part of his Church. We'll probably just have to agree to disagree, although I'm open to hearing your reasoning.

[ERCougar]

I'm with Santos on this one. Sorry for the string of replies but this is an issue that has touched my life on multiple occasions. I posted on this before:
http://cougarguard.com/forum/showthr...ght=discipline

In sum, I think the church discipline system, except in the case of the member who has no desire to change or return to the church, does as much harm as good. I don't fault those who are involved in them, I fault the policy. I think it shifts our focus from eternal to temporal, and I think many of the responses in this thread illustrate this shift--everyone seems to think we need to institute some sort of temporal punishment for sin.

It's Fowler's Stage 2. Can't we move beyond this?

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by ERCougar

I'm with Santos on this one. Sorry for the string of replies but this is an issue that has touched my life on multiple occasions. I posted on this before:
http://cougarguard.com/forum/showthr...ght=discipline

In sum, I think the church discipline system, except in the case of the member who has no desire to change or return to the church, does as much harm as good. I don't fault those who are involved in them, I fault the policy. I think it shifts our focus from eternal to temporal, and I think many of the responses in this thread illustrate this shift--everyone seems to think we need to institute some sort of temporal punishment for sin.

It's Fowler's Stage 2. Can't we move beyond this?

People in stage 2 and 3 are comfortable with neat rules that translate, "a man commits adultery, he is thus ex'ed." They like those rules.

I don't find scriptural references to support the punishment aspect for the repentant sinner.

[cougarobgon]

Originally Posted by ERCougar

It's Fowler's Stage 2. Can't we move beyond this?

What is Fowler's Stage 2? Link? Book?

[ERCougar]

Originally Posted by cougarobgon

What is Fowler's Stage 2? Link? Book?

http://www.amazon.com/Stages-Faith-P...9807481&sr=1-1

Interesting read that SIEQ suggested a few months ago. Written by a Catholic, IIRC, whose research team interviewed thousands of people, from atheists to fundamentalists, about their faith stories, and then came up with a model describing stages of faith and connecting them to known stages in developmental psychology. I'm still in the middle of it (I got distracted and am currently finishing a different book) and so I can't speak too intelligently about the different stages, but I have had some fun trying to identify the different stages of people on here.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by ERCougar

Sorry...I don't believe this. I don't doubt their intentions to sincerely help the person, but I don't believe in a God who turns his back on a sinner who wants to be part of his Church. We'll probably just have to agree to disagree, although I'm open to hearing your reasoning.

The flaw in your thinking is that discipline represents "God [turning] his back on a sinner."

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by ERCougar

... but I have had some fun trying to identify the different stages of people on here.

Uh-oh. Are you going to post a list?

[RockyBalboa]

Originally Posted by ERCougar

I still don't think you have to kick them out of the church--just keep them out of certain positions. This isn't that difficult, and is necessary even when they are excommunicated (in order to prevent them from being rebaptized and called to these positions).

Sorry but I'll go ahead and disagree with you and state that men (or women) who sexually abuse little children and physically beat their wives, deserve to be kicked out of the church.