How much education does a SAHM need? - Page 5 - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

Cali Coug · 05-13-2009, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

The idea that the church's culture creates tremendous pressure against women choosing professional careers, but somehow BYU exerts NO institutional pressure--think about that idea for a minute. Even if you didn't know anything about BYU, didn't know any examples, didn't know any names or circumstances, how likely is that to be true?

That isn't what I said at all. I merely questioned whether pressure at BYU was a result of BYU only or a result of general church pressure then being amplified through BYU.

MikeWaters · 05-13-2009, 09:09 PM

Imagine if every time it became known that you intended to go to law school, people asked you (including faculty/staff) if you planned to have children.

marsupial · 05-14-2009, 01:02 AM

I really wanted to respond to this thread but it grew too fast, so pardon me for interrupting. (Though, it is nice to see a thread this long here. It's been awhile.)

1. The more educated a woman is the more knowledge she can pass on to her children. Certainly uneducated women can make good moms. No one gets degrees in patience, love, understanding or kindness, which are ultimately more important than being able to help with Algebra homework. You can be highly educated and a crappy mom. But children with mothers who value learning and education are more likely to succeed in school and probably in life.

2. As a SAHM, I feel like my role is important and a worthy aspiration. I feel like SAHMs are diminished on this board when this topic comes up, as if what we offer has no value.

3. If my daughter aspires to become a SAHM one day, I would still encourage her to get as much education and job skills as possible until that day comes. Most women will have to work to support themselves for at least a fair chunk of their adult life whether they want to or not. Those who opt out of education because they only plan to become a SAHM will find themselves working nights at Walmart. Those with education and job skills will have more opportunities for better jobs, pay, hours, etc. Those moms with education and job experience will have more power to finagle working remotely from home, working part time and other family-friendly options.

4. I believe that homemaking and breadwinning are the responsibilities of both parents. Fathers can make fine homemakers. Mothers can make fine breadwinners. Both parents should be confident and capable doing either task. It is ridiculous that he was out delivering pizzas when she had a law degree. Though it is not surprising. It is a prevailing attitude that the man must work and the woman must stay at home, even when the family would be better served if the roles were reversed.

MikeWaters · 05-14-2009, 01:16 AM

it is not the facts that are important, when it comes to education. It is the "hows". How you learn, how you solve problems.

My education/training, to some degree, has made me a better learner. So I can pass that on. The facts of my training are probably unimportant in terms of passing on.

The gains in education, the longer you go, become more marginal in terms of their utility for parenting. Is my anticipated masters degree going to make me a better parent? Probably not to a great degree.

A different aspect of this issue is what society wants and needs. Society definitely does not want or need medical school graduates who don't practice medicine. States, for example, subsidize medical education in hopes of boosting the supply of physicians within their boundaries. It's a wasted investment to spend $120,000 (let's assume that is the state's input) on someone's training only to have them decide never to put that training to use.

You became a marginally better parent (maybe), but you took a qualified person out of the supply where demand outpaces supply. Is that ethical? Good?

Marsupial is an example of a smart, attrative woman who decided to be a SAHM. She has the luxury of making this choice. She also has the capability to enter the work force or get more training, and do well.

I'm not denigrating SAHMs, I've said repeatedly here. I'm exploring the choices that are made among LDS women from many angles.

marsupial · 05-14-2009, 01:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

A different aspect of this issue is what society wants and needs. Society definitely does not want or need medical school graduates who don't practice medicine. States, for example, subsidize medical education in hopes of boosting the supply of physicians within their boundaries. It's a wasted investment to spend $120,000 (let's assume that is the state's input) on someone's training only to have them decide never to put that training to use.

You became a marginally better parent (maybe), but you took a qualified person out of the supply where demand outpaces supply. Is that ethical? Good?

There was a couple in a former ward who were both doctors. She quit working after having kids. I thought it was a big waste. Fortunately, he was making bank so paying off two sets of medical school loans didn't seem to be an issue.

But, I also know of a dental practice in Memphis made of up moms. They divide up office hours and share expenses so that they can spend more time at home with their children. I thought this was a good idea. Moms with specialized training are better able to strike these kinds of balances than moms who forego schooling. Because of this, I would only encourage young women to get as much school and training as they can.

Also, I have been able to stay at home with my kids because of my education and training. I was able to work from home on a part-time basis and make enough money to keep us afloat through danimal's graduate program. I continue to work from home, mostly as a security blanket. Even though it's only part-time, it at least keeps my resume current which is more than most SAHMs can offer a prospective employer.

All-American · 05-14-2009, 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

it is not the facts that are important, when it comes to education. It is the "hows". How you learn, how you solve problems.

My education/training, to some degree, has made me a better learner. So I can pass that on. The facts of my training are probably unimportant in terms of passing on.

The gains in education, the longer you go, become more marginal in terms of their utility for parenting. Is my anticipated masters degree going to make me a better parent? Probably not to a great degree.

A different aspect of this issue is what society wants and needs. Society definitely does not want or need medical school graduates who don't practice medicine. States, for example, subsidize medical education in hopes of boosting the supply of physicians within their boundaries. It's a wasted investment to spend $120,000 (let's assume that is the state's input) on someone's training only to have them decide never to put that training to use.

You became a marginally better parent (maybe), but you took a qualified person out of the supply where demand outpaces supply. Is that ethical? Good?

Marsupial is an example of a smart, attrative woman who decided to be a SAHM. She has the luxury of making this choice. She also has the capability to enter the work force or get more training, and do well.

I'm not denigrating SAHMs, I've said repeatedly here. I'm exploring the choices that are made among LDS women from many angles.

I'll agree with you on at least this much: women should be able to explore their options, decide what they want, and pursue their dreams irrespective of what others feel. To whatever extent this is not happening, it is most unfortunate.

Man or woman, I would advocate getting as much education as possible, though not without considering finances involved. There is such a thing as eruditio gratia eruditionis.

FarrahWaters · 05-14-2009, 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

My brother-in-law works in DC. He is single. He says he is not attracted to most of the LDS women there. Why? Basically because they are aggressive professionals.

I feel the need to defend my brother here. This is not the first time he has been used by Mike as an example in one of these SAHM/working mothers threads. He is attracted to a more laid-back type of personality, and this does not rule out all professional women, of course. I think Mike took a little bit of a leap in logic with his statement.

He is dating an LDS woman now who recently taught English composition at a university and now has a fairly high-paying job as some kind of consultant. I don't know if that counts as professional enough in Mike's book, but there it is.

il Padrino Ute · 05-14-2009, 02:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FarrahWaters

He is dating an LDS woman now who recently taught English composition at a university and now has a fairly high-paying job as some kind of consultant. I don't know if that counts as professional enough in Mike's book, but there it is.

Mike has displayed disdain for women who choose to teach, though I'm not sure why. Teaching is an honorable profession for both men and women.

BarbaraGordon · 05-14-2009, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by All-American

3. What was the nature of this institutional repression? How did it manifest itself? Who were its primary conveyors? What happened to those who tried to buck the trend?

A-A, I'd tread carefully here. Take a dozen thirty-year-old LDS women and ask them how they feel about the freedom (or lack thereof) they were afforded. Ask the ones who dropped out of college to have babies. Ask the ones who got graduate degrees that they never used. Ask the ones like BBB who chose career over family and have to justify that decision every single day.

You're talking about an institution whose law school sent me official material reassuring me that it's okay to get a law degree and then stay home in the end. (This is true, of course, but you'd think that a law school would also want to point out that it's okay to get a law degree and then, you know, practice law!!) I am an outsider, but it is my impression that the cultural forces shaping the LDS young woman's understanding of herself and her role in society are real and powerful. What is perhaps most dangerous is that those forces are rarely so explicit as they were in the leaflet I was mailed.

BarbaraGordon · 05-14-2009, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Imagine if every time it became known that you intended to go to law school, people asked you (including faculty/staff) if you planned to have children.

exactly. SoccerMom said someone actually chastised her for taking the spot of a deserving young man that might need to support a family someday.

05-14-2009, 01:02 AM	#43
marsupial Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: M-I-S-S-I-S-S-I-P-P-I... Isn't it so fun to spell? Posts: 1,701	I really wanted to respond to this thread but it grew too fast, so pardon me for interrupting. (Though, it is nice to see a thread this long here. It's been awhile.) 1. The more educated a woman is the more knowledge she can pass on to her children. Certainly uneducated women can make good moms. No one gets degrees in patience, love, understanding or kindness, which are ultimately more important than being able to help with Algebra homework. You can be highly educated and a crappy mom. But children with mothers who value learning and education are more likely to succeed in school and probably in life. 2. As a SAHM, I feel like my role is important and a worthy aspiration. I feel like SAHMs are diminished on this board when this topic comes up, as if what we offer has no value. 3. If my daughter aspires to become a SAHM one day, I would still encourage her to get as much education and job skills as possible until that day comes. Most women will have to work to support themselves for at least a fair chunk of their adult life whether they want to or not. Those who opt out of education because they only plan to become a SAHM will find themselves working nights at Walmart. Those with education and job skills will have more opportunities for better jobs, pay, hours, etc. Those moms with education and job experience will have more power to finagle working remotely from home, working part time and other family-friendly options. 4. I believe that homemaking and breadwinning are the responsibilities of both parents. Fathers can make fine homemakers. Mothers can make fine breadwinners. Both parents should be confident and capable doing either task. It is ridiculous that he was out delivering pizzas when she had a law degree. Though it is not surprising. It is a prevailing attitude that the man must work and the woman must stay at home, even when the family would be better served if the roles were reversed. __________________ "Mormon men are inherently sexy..." -Archaea Last edited by marsupial; 05-14-2009 at 01:05 AM.

05-13-2009, 09:09 PM	#42
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	Imagine if every time it became known that you intended to go to law school, people asked you (including faculty/staff) if you planned to have children.

05-14-2009, 01:16 AM	#44
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	it is not the facts that are important, when it comes to education. It is the "hows". How you learn, how you solve problems. My education/training, to some degree, has made me a better learner. So I can pass that on. The facts of my training are probably unimportant in terms of passing on. The gains in education, the longer you go, become more marginal in terms of their utility for parenting. Is my anticipated masters degree going to make me a better parent? Probably not to a great degree. A different aspect of this issue is what society wants and needs. Society definitely does not want or need medical school graduates who don't practice medicine. States, for example, subsidize medical education in hopes of boosting the supply of physicians within their boundaries. It's a wasted investment to spend $120,000 (let's assume that is the state's input) on someone's training only to have them decide never to put that training to use. You became a marginally better parent (maybe), but you took a qualified person out of the supply where demand outpaces supply. Is that ethical? Good? Marsupial is an example of a smart, attrative woman who decided to be a SAHM. She has the luxury of making this choice. She also has the capability to enter the work force or get more training, and do well. I'm not denigrating SAHMs, I've said repeatedly here. I'm exploring the choices that are made among LDS women from many angles.