Apotheosis and Clement of Alexandria

[Solon]

Apotheosis (humans becoming gods) is an important part of my current research. I stumbled across this yesterday.

ναί φημι, ὁ λόγος ὁ τοῦ θεοῦ ἄνθρωπος γενόμενος, ἵνα δὴ καὶ σὺ παρὰ ἀνθρώπου μάθῃς, πῇ ποτε ἄρα ἄνθρωπος γένηται θεός

Yes I say, the word of god became man, so that even you might learn from a man how it could ever be possible for a man to become a god. -- Protrepticus (Exhortation to the Greeks), chapter 1, section 8 (Mondésert numeration)

The writings of Clement are vast and interesting. He was clearly well read and worked to incorporate both Hebrew scripture and Greek literature into his writings on Christianity.

One of my favorite of his tracts is "The Rich Man's Salvation" where he explains (to the relief, I'm sure, of the rich who had begun to accept Christianity in big numbers) that the story of the Rich Young Man (Mark 10.17-25) was symbolic - not literal. Jesus doesn't really want us to sell all our stuff. Instead, he wants us to get rid of our wants and greed and lust. Those are our only "possessions." Everything else belongs to God, so we should hold onto the good stuff (houses, money, etc.) Indeed, if we give too much to the poor, we can't do very much good and we just end up wishing we had more stuff - both sins. So, jet the bad desires and keep the nice possessions.

It's as fine of a piece of rationalization as you'll ever read.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by Solon

Apotheosis (humans becoming gods) is an important part of my current research. I stumbled across this yesterday.

ναί φημι, ὁ λόγος ὁ τοῦ θεοῦ ἄνθρωπος γενόμενος, ἵνα δὴ καὶ σὺ παρὰ ἀνθρώπου μάθῃς, πῇ ποτε ἄρα ἄνθρωπος γένηται θεός



The writings of Clement are vast and interesting. He was clearly well read and worked to incorporate both Hebrew scripture and Greek literature into his writings on Christianity.

One of my favorite of his tracts is "The Rich Man's Salvation" where he explains (to the relief, I'm sure, of the rich who had begun to accept Christianity in big numbers) that the story of the Rich Young Man (Mark 10.17-25) was symbolic - not literal. Jesus doesn't really want us to sell all our stuff. Instead, he wants us to get rid of our wants and greed and lust. Those are our only "possessions." Everything else belongs to God, so we should hold onto the good stuff (houses, money, etc.) Indeed, if we give too much to the poor, we can't do very much good and we just end up wishing we had more stuff - both sins. So, jet the bad desires and keep the nice possessions.

It's as fine of a piece of rationalization as you'll ever read.

Where did you find the quote?

[Solon]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

Where did you find the quote?

Sorry - I forgot to put the citation in. I edited the post.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by Solon

Sorry - I forgot to put the citation in. I edited the post.

That's a wonderful quote. I love the vernacular too. I warn you, however, that Clement is the very essence of what FARMS would call an agent of the Great Apostasy.

[pelagius]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

That's a wonderful quote. I love the vernacular too. I warn you, however, that Clement is the very essence of what FARMS would call an agent of the Great Apostasy.

Note, this is an automatic response setup to respond to SU whenever he mentions or implies that FARMs believes hellenization is the cause or driving force behind the apostasy.

-----------
I don't think FARMS is monothilic about this. For example, in the recently published FARMs book, Early Christians in Disarray, Noel B. Reynolds (a big name in FARMS) writes the following:

Myth 2: The apostasy was caused by the hellenization of Christianity or the incorporation of Greek philosophy and culture into the teachings of the early church.

-----------

To stay on topic: nice find Solon.

[ChinoCoug]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

That's a wonderful quote. I love the vernacular too. I warn you, however, that Clement is the very essence of what FARMS would call an agent of the Great Apostasy.

you don't know what you're talking about. FARMS always quotes stuff like this to support their contention that deification was taught in the early church.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by ChinoCoug

you don't know what you're talking about. FARMS always quotes stuff like this to support their contention that deification was taught in the early church.

Oh really, FARMS is a fan of Clement? Did you know he died after 200? Your heros at FARMS of course claim that Greek influence=Great Apostasy, as we've established (grant you, Pelagius, embarrassed by such manifest ignorance, has tried to show a split opinion within FARMS on this). Moreover, I thought you disagreed that the early pristine Church had any Greek philosphy in its DNA.

"He united Greek philosophical traditions with Christian doctrine and valued gnosis that with communion for all people could be held by common Christians. He developed a Christian Platonism.[1] Like Origen, he arose from Alexandria's Catechical School and was well versed in pagan literature.[1] Origen succeeded Clement as head of the school.[1]

Clement is counted as one of the early Church Fathers."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clement_of_Alexandria

[SeattleUte]

Chino, you're a dumb ass.

[pelagius]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

Oh really, FARMS is a fan of Clement? Did you know he died after 200? Your heros at FARMS of course claim that Greek influence=Great Apostasy, as we've established (grant you, Pelagius, embarrassed by such manifest ignorance, has tried to show a split opinion within FARMS on this).

I will fully admit that in times past Hellenization has been held out as a big part of the apostasy. I seem to recall that Elder Maxwell spoke this way on occasion. However, there has been a shift in the last few years away from Hellenization and towards the Reynolds understanding. Namely that “LDS scholars today conclude increasingly that the root causes of the apostasy were the abandonment or breaking of sacred covenants by the Christians themselves.” Reynolds thought is not idiosyncratic here. Early Christians in Disarray builds on the Reynolds thesis throughout the book and this is FARMS flagship book about the apostasy. FARMS really has shifted away from blaming hellenization.

There is a decent review of the book here:

http://www.timesandseasons.org/?p=2783

[pelagius]

And to bring the discussion back to Clement, here is a link to an article by Reynolds about Hellenization and Clement. He essentially argues that Greek Philosophy was a tool that Christians used to cope with the effects of the apostasy and he uses Clement as an example.

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/disp...nsights&id=220