do 8 year olds "decide" to be baptized?

[bigpiney]

Originally Posted by jay santos

Based on the Pelagius probability model, you can just assume I probably know everything compared to you.

This is the thread winner. Jay take the rest of day off, you deserve it.

[CardiacCoug]

Interesting thread.

I baptized my 8-year old son two months ago. I would characterize my son as more immature than average for an 8-year old and he sure doesn't seem to have much inherent interest in religion. He's pretty cynical, like his Dad. (He figured out Santa Claus was fake when he was four.) He definitely wanted to get baptized but it feels disingenuous to say he made an "informed decision" about baptism.

I will say three things regarding baptism at age eight (versus as a teenager), though:

1. My son really liked getting baptized. I'm not sure he would have genuinely enjoyed the experience as much as a teenager. Just my opinion.

2. He has seemed to be significantly better behaved since his baptism. I would have been too cynical as a teenager to really believe I was now clean from all my sins and needed to try hard to stay that way.

3. The baptismal experience was a pretty awesome bonding moment between my son and me. I'm not sure this aspect would really be the same for a son baptized as a teenager, either.

[creekster]

Originally Posted by All-American

Its been a while since I've done initiatory, but I understand that they've made some changes for the sake of modesty and comfort. Anybody able to report on this?

I am not really willing to report on it, but I can confirm that things have changed appreciably.

[Indy Coug]

Originally Posted by creekster

I am not really willing to report on it, but I can confirm that things have changed appreciably.

Yes.

[CardiacCoug]

One more point on the issue of baptismal age.

I think if you want to give your kids a fair opportunity to choose to remain active in the Church you need to allow them to go ahead and get baptized at the conventional age of eight and participate fully in the Church as children and young adults.

Some of my relatives decided all their children would have to wait until age 18 to get baptized so that they could truly make their own decision. The kids came to Church but were basically left on the periphery of the Church as non-member teenagers, especially the non-Priesthood holding boys. Needless to say, none of them chose to become members as adults. I'm not sure you're really giving your kids a chance at an "informed decision" with that approach either.

If you want to give your kids freedom to take or leave the Church as adults you need to give them the full Church experience during the formative years.

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by CardiacCoug

One more point on the issue of baptismal age.

I think if you want to give your kids a fair opportunity to choose to remain active in the Church you need to allow them to go ahead and get baptized at the conventional age of eight and participate fully in the Church as children and young adults.

Some of my relatives decided all their children would have to wait until age 18 to get baptized so that they could truly make their own decision. The kids came to Church but were basically left on the periphery of the Church as non-member teenagers, especially the non-Priesthood holding boys. Needless to say, none of them chose to become members as adults. I'm not sure you're really giving your kids a chance at an "informed decision" with that approach either.

If you want to give your kids freedom to take or leave the Church as adults you need to give them the full Church experience during the formative years.

My kids don't get to make the important choices in their lives and this is no exception. They don't get to choose what school they go to, whether they will be vaccinated, whether they get to watch media that I think is inappropriate or whether they are going to brush their teeth.

My job is to establish a baseline for my kids. If when they want to reach adulthood, they want to reject some of what I have taught them, if they want to adopt nuanced positions, if they want to come to different conclusions then that will be their right. But they are not going to grow up without a a framework having been erected for them to make these choices within, without a tradition that they can ultimately accept or reject.

This is why baptism is an important ritual that we subject our children to. It makes them part of a community that they are going to have because I think it is important and sets them on the path of a life style that I want them to have. No part of this is a choice for them, and again, when they become adults they are free to do what they want, to choose different traditions, lifestyles, or paths. There won't be any ambiguity in their minds, however, about what their Dad thought was important, whatever they choose.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

My kids don't get to make the important choices in their lives and this is no exception. They don't get to choose what school they go to, whether they will be vaccinated, whether they get to watch media that I think is inappropriate or whether they are going to brush their teeth.

My job is to establish a baseline for my kids. If when they want to reach adulthood, they want to reject some of what I have taught them, if they want to adopt nuanced positions, if they want to come to different conclusions then that will be their right. But they are not going to grow up without a a framework having been erected for them to make these choices within, without a tradition that they can ultimately accept or reject.

This is why baptism is an important ritual that we subject our children to. It makes them part of a community that they are going to have because I think it is important and sets them on the path of a life style that I want them to have. No part of this is a choice for them, and again, when they become adults they are free to do what they want, to choose different traditions, lifestyles, or paths. There won't be any ambiguity in their minds, however, about what their Dad thought was important, whatever they choose.

I want to hear Levin, Creekster and Jay argue how this approach really is true free agency and an informed free choice.

[UtahDan]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

I want to hear Levin, Creekster and Jay argue how this approach really is true free agency and an informed free choice.

I think that would be a tough sell. Obedience first. Free agency later.

[creekster]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

I want to hear Levin, Creekster and Jay argue how this approach really is true free agency and an informed free choice.

I explained my feelings before. You didn't like them and, as usual, find my explantion to be simple or wrong or both. So be it. I have no obligation to adopt UD's approach or rationale, although I understand the point he is making.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by UtahDan

I think that would be a tough sell. Obedience first. Free agency later.

This really puts them in a quandary. Because it is a hardline approach that they completely agree with, but they don't like how you have phrased it as having little choice. They would argue it is completely and total choice, just as if a 45 year old investigated the church and considered joining.

You've really messed them up now.