Palestinian Right of Return

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Yeah that was a good article. I really do take heart that there are fair-minded moral Jews who see the current state of Israel as absolutely morally untenable and damning.

What is happening to Israel as described in the article is a function of Jews' spectacular consmopolitanism, education, intellectualism, and sophistication. Buffeted by barbarians who are hard as iron and pitiless and wholly lacking in regard for life including their own or any secular interests or appetites the Jews are gradually being worn down. It's somewhat like what happened to the Roman Empire. Civilized people have no stomach for warfare.

As Burg said in the notorious interview, "The Israeli élite has already parted with this place. And without an élite there is no nation." Were I an Israeli, I would want my son or daughter to go to college and settle in U.S., to get out of Isreal. The myth is no longer enough to sustain Israel, and there never was enough of anything else. Especially with the daily danger. I can't imagine the stress the threat of terrorism must cause these exceedingly civilized people. Pity for the Palestinians was really very little of the factors this article covered.

It's an extreme example of what's happening to religions all over the world (extreme because of the extreme conditions), as we see on this board. People wonder why Mormon growth is flattening. It's flattening because unbelief is now a major worldwide "belief" system, and growing faster than Islam in its early years. This passage speaks volumes: "One subject that especially infuriated Shavit, and provoked countless letters to the editor, e-mail screeds, and editorial-page rebuttals, was Burg’s depiction of the European Union as an almost irresistibly attractive 'biblical utopia' and his flouting of the fact that he holds a French passport, because his wife is French-born, and voted in the recent French elections."

So the Islamo facsists may yet wind up with Israel, and I bet blood would then run in the sand (I wonder if they'd keep the streets and other infrastructure in shape) as never before. Supporting Israel over militant/radical Islam is a no brainer, but the future doesn't look great.

[MikeWaters]

SU, what you don't know is that Israel was never founded on the basis of religious belief. Many, if not most, of the early founders were not religious at all.

What has become unsustainable is the subjugation of the Palestinians, on the basis of their myths. The only thing left on the list of occupation is wholesale bodily genocide. They've taken their land, their water, they've destroyed evidences of their history, their villages. Now the conservatives actually open talk about further cultural genocide, that is, removing the Palestinians from the occupied territories.

Who are the barbarians? The intellectual elite around the world are abandoning Israel. (I don't consider you part of the intellectual elite, you are a tradesman who works for businesses, and is not in anyway involved in forming the thoughts of the next generation, even your book is a yarn based on entertainment).

Imperialism is doomed to fail. History teaches us that. Israel cannot claim moral superiority while at the same time occupying a people for sixty years.

If I were Israeli, I would not send out my children to die for Israeli hegemony. It is not a moral cause.

[Sleeping in EQ]

Deep down, some conservatives know that the Palestinians have a stronger complaint than they will ever publicly acknowledge. These would say to the Palestinians, "Your cause is just, but I can do nothing for you. If I take up for you, I shall lose the vote of..."

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

The intellectual elite around the world are abandoning Israel.

Wrong. These guys were shut out from lecturing about their book at major American universities and as a result their book was a bust:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/16/bo...prod=permalink

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Isr...Foreign_Policy

[BYU71]

You guys are still arguing this. I now understand why the Israeli's and Arabs can't settle the issue.

[Mindfulcoug]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

SU, what you don't know is that Israel was never founded on the basis of religious belief. Many, if not most, of the early founders were not religious at all.

Nor their alliances with christian fundamentalism is a religious interest rather political expediency.

Time To Terminate This Unholy Alliance?

excerpt from the article above.

Yakov M. Rabkin, the Jewish Canadian Professor of History at the University of Montreal. In his book A Threat From Within, A CENTURY OF JEWISH OPPOSITION TO ZIONISM, he writes:

“The massive support extended to the State of Israel by millions of Christian supporters of Zionism is overtly motivated by a single consideration: that the return of the Jews to the Holy Land will be a prelude to their acceptance of Christ (when he returns) or, for those who fail to do so, to their physical destruction.”

Simply stated, Christian fundamentalism’s only interest in the Zionist state of Israel is in assisting it to become the instrument for bringing about, as foretold by the Christian Bible, the end of the world in a final battle at Armageddon between the forces of good and evil. In this scenario the Jews will have a choice - either to junk their Judaism and become Christians, in which case they will be beamed up to heaven, or to be annihilated… It seems to me that there’s a case for saying that Christian fundamentalism is, potentially, a far bigger threat to Jews and Judaism than all the Arabs and other Muslims of the world put together, including a nuclear-armed Iran!

[BYU71]

Originally Posted by mindfulcoug

Nor their alliances with christian fundamentalism is a religious interest rather political expediency.

Time To Terminate This Unholy Alliance?

excerpt from the article above.

Yakov M. Rabkin, the Jewish Canadian Professor of History at the University of Montreal. In his book A Threat From Within, A CENTURY OF JEWISH OPPOSITION TO ZIONISM, he writes:

“The massive support extended to the State of Israel by millions of Christian supporters of Zionism is overtly motivated by a single consideration: that the return of the Jews to the Holy Land will be a prelude to their acceptance of Christ (when he returns) or, for those who fail to do so, to their physical destruction.”

Simply stated, Christian fundamentalism’s only interest in the Zionist state of Israel is in assisting it to become the instrument for bringing about, as foretold by the Christian Bible, the end of the world in a final battle at Armageddon between the forces of good and evil. In this scenario the Jews will have a choice - either to junk their Judaism and become Christians, in which case they will be beamed up to heaven, or to be annihilated… It seems to me that there’s a case for saying that Christian fundamentalism is, potentially, a far bigger threat to Jews and Judaism than all the Arabs and other Muslims of the world put together, including a nuclear-armed Iran!

The Rabbi makes a good point from which he comes to a pretty stupid conclusion. To come to the conclusion he comes too, he too would have to believe what the Christians believe.

If he doesn't believe it, he should sit back and smile while Israel gets all this support while the Christians are waiting for an event that will never come.

[Mindfulcoug]

Originally Posted by BYU71

The Rabbi makes a good point from which he comes to a pretty stupid conclusion. To come to the conclusion he comes too, he too would have to believe what the Christians believe.

If he doesn't believe it, he should sit back and smile while Israel gets all this support while the Christians are waiting for an event that will never come.

Jews close friendship with christian fundamentalists "their classic enemies" (who beleive in that the return of the Jews to thy Land will be a prelude to their acceptance of Christ (when he returns) or, for those who fail to do so, to their physical destruction.” seems a matter of wonder.So the author is seeking for the motivation behind ,which he suggest ,is pure politics.

The story of a zionist offer to collaborate with NaZi Germany-to participate in the war on Germany's side and to assist the establishment of Hitler's New (totalitarian) order in Europe is also mentioned in this article which i found quite entertaining .

[MikeWaters]

Israel collaborated with the white govt. in South Africa. No surprise they would collaborate with the likes of Rev. Hagee, who is pariah in the USA.

[BYU71]

Originally Posted by mindfulcoug

Jews close friendship with christian fundamentalists "their classic enemies" (who beleive in that the return of the Jews to thy Land will be a prelude to their acceptance of Christ (when he returns) or, for those who fail to do so, to their physical destruction.” seems a matter of wonder.So the author is seeking for the motivation behind ,which he suggest ,is pure politics.

The story of a zionist offer to collaborate with NaZi Germany-to participate in the war on Germany's side and to assist the establishment of Hitler's New (totalitarian) order in Europe is also mentioned in this article which i found quite entertaining .

People do a lot of stupid things in the name of their religion. You should know this well.