How do you feel about coercive prayers?

[RedHeadGal]

Originally Posted by YOhio

Does Billy participate in class otherwise?

Sort of, but not as much as most.

[RedHeadGal]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

In general, there's nothing wrong with making kids do stuff that's good for them, in an appropriate way. In fact, it's wrong not to.

The question is posed as if it's an adult being coerced, however. They're not the same as children.

Well, part of the question actually was whether there was a difference btw adults and kids. And are there differences for adults other that "worthiness" issues?

I have no worthiness restrictions on praying, but I don't like to do it, and I don't like being coerced. Which is why I don't like doing it to kids either, even if it's "good" for them. Maybe I need to just alternate turns, then they all share the duty. Or offer rewards for praying. That might work, too.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by RedHeadGal

Well, part of the question actually was whether there was a difference btw adults and kids. And are there differences for adults other that "worthiness" issues?

I have no worthiness restrictions on praying, but I don't like to do it, and I don't like being coerced. Which is why I don't like doing it to kids either, even if it's "good" for them. Maybe I need to just alternate turns, then they all share the duty. Or offer rewards for praying. That might work, too.

Well, the LDS Church and I part company at the threshold because I think it's nothing if not a fundamentally coercive institution. Coersion pervades the whole experience. I don't understand, for example, highly educated adults saying, "I support Proposition 8 because the Lord [read: the Prophet] says I should." It's like a child talking about Mama. As Elder McMurrin pointed out, LDS leaders' discourse with their adherants is so impoverished that it is like talking to children. Some people claim to be "happy" in that atmosphere. To each his own, not for me.

I have been struck by the brow beating going on in wards by bishops and stake presidents asking for a show of hands as to who will give time and money to support Proposition 8. Pure coersion. I know some people who are embarrassed to have their work colleagues see them supporting Proposition 8 are instead opening up their check books in response to the coersion. I'm not judging them. Well, I guess I sort of am, because I see Proposition 8 as motivated by hate. That's why the best and brightes LdS are embarrased. What I mean is, they say this typle of authoritarianism makes them happy. Good for them. Not for me and my children.

[creekster]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

Well, the LDS Church and I part company at the threshold because I think it's nothing if not a fundamentally coercive institution. Coersion pervades the whole experience. I don't understand, for example, highly educated adults saying, "I support Proposition 8 because the Lord [read: the Prophet] says I should." It's like a child talking about Mama. As Elder McMurrin pointed out, LDS leaders' discourse with their adherants is so impoverished that it is like talking to children. Some people claim to be "happy" in that atmosphere. To each his own, not for me.

You understand it, you just disagree with it. Moreover, the examples you cite certainly don't support your premise. Someone agreeing to support prop 8 as asked does not reveal coercion. You are asserting your premise but not proving it. OUt of curiosity, have you raised your children in what, by your analysis here, would be a coercion free atmosphere? (See if you can recall the original post in this thread.)

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

Well, the LDS Church and I part company at the threshold because I think it's nothing if not a fundamentally coercive institution. Coersion pervades the whole experience. I don't understand, for example, highly educated adults saying, "I support Proposition 8 because the Lord [read: the Prophet] says I should." It's like a child talking about Mama. As Elder McMurrin pointed out, LDS leaders' discourse with their adherants is so impoverished that it is like talking to children. Some people claim to be "happy" in that atmosphere. To each his own, not for me.

I have been struck by the brow beating going on in wards by bishops and stake presidents asking for a show of hands as to who will give time and money to support Proposition 8. Pure coersion. I know some people who are embarrassed to have their work colleagues see them supporting Proposition 8 are instead opening up their check books in response to the coersion. I'm not judging them. Well, I guess I sort of am, because I see Proposition 8 as motivated by hate. That's why the best and brightes LdS are embarrased. What I mean is, they say this typle of authoritarianism makes them happy. Good for them. Not for me and my children.

What's the difference between the coercion that you see going on by LDS leaders and you trying to get people to leave the LDS church through coercion?

SU: "Only the unenlightened choose to be involved in religion in general and the LDS religion specifically."

That's the message you're always trying to send.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by creekster

OUt of curiosity, have you raised your children in what, by your analysis here, would be a coercion free atmosphere?

I gave my answer to the original post. Minors SHOULD BE COERCED to do the right thing, even in subjective matters of consciense important to parents. Creekster, I think you and other active LDS should make your child go to church, and pray. I've posted before that there's someting wrong with an active LDS parent (a stake President) who tolerates and indulges an 11 year old refusing to go to church. My last post was about adults. On the other hand, I think parents who try to coerce their adult children explicitly or implicitly are generally wrong.

[creekster]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

I gave my answer to the original post. Minors SHOULD BE COERCED to do the right thing, even in subjective matters of consciense important to parents. Creekster, I think you and other active LDS should make your child go to church, and pray. I've posted before that there's someting wrong with an active LDS parent (a stake President) who tolerates and indulges an 11 year old refusing to go to church. My last post was about adults. On the other hand, I think parents who try to coerce their adult children explicitly or implicitly are generally wrong.

ANd you have sworn to avoid all 'implicit coercion' for your childrenonce they are adults? I doubt it.

[SoCalCoug]

Originally Posted by il Padrino Ute

What's the difference between the coercion that you see going on by LDS leaders and you trying to get people to leave the LDS church through coercion?

SU: "Only the unenlightened choose to be involved in religion in general and the LDS religion specifically."

That's the message you're always trying to send.

I see it as a difference between "coercion" and "persuasion". SU doesn't have any authority to hold over our heads if we don't toe the line with him. The church does.

[il Padrino Ute]

Originally Posted by SoCalCoug

I see it as a difference between "coercion" and "persuasion". SU doesn't have any authority to hold over our heads if we don't toe the line with him. The church does.

Well, the church does if we allow it to. We always have the agency to leave the church so it doesn't really can't hold it over our heads.

Still, you make a good point and I withdraw my question to SU.