Rattling around my head

[cougarobgon]

Originally Posted by Archaea

Your understanding of revelation is different than mine. You see Nathan going out to find David, which is a nice story but given the Church demographics doesn't happen.

Seeking it can take form in many ways, but I've seen the process many times. First, you start as an eager beaver, attending all priesthood meetings, working hard in callings and attend all church functions, being seen and known by existing leadership, vocally supporting local leaders. You springboard from there.

In retrospect, I don't find it as offensive as I once did, the Church should select people of ability who desire to serve. Or, the reverse, we select people who shirk their duties, don't desire to serve and prefer not to support leadership. Is there any wonder that those who seek it, receive it?

I also remember seeing a high counselor recommend his wife on many occasions for stake positions, which were awarded to her. The church is very businesslike and pragmatic, and this is a practical solution.

While I don't doubt there are people out there that are seeking leadership positions for the sake of recognition, I cannot recall a single instance when someone lobbyed for or tried very hard to impress me so that I would extend a calling to them within the ward leadership. And I don't think anyone lobbyed to replace me when I was released. It may be that some do seek positions in the stake leadership, but, other than the RS Presidency or SP Presidency, all other positions amount to "grunts" that need to put in a lot of time and effort into their callings to carry out their responsibilities.

I consider myself one of those you describe as eager beavers that attends all priesthood meetings, I work hard in callings and attend most if not all church functions, I know all existing leadership, and I vocally support my leaders. And I know many other individuals that are like me. However, we are not seeking leadership positions, we have made commitments and want to contribute of our time and means to what we perceive to be a good cause. Nothing wrong with that. It should not surprise you that most often than not, it is from this pool of the ward membership that individuals are called to fill leadership positions in wards and stakes. There are many humble and committed individuals who find it rewarding to serve in the church and do so not because they want to be recongized, but because they want to contribute to a good cause.

[All-American]

Originally Posted by Tex

Did you recently give a talk in the last priesthood session?

Hmm. Well, that's why you should never speak up in a religion forum. Somebody else already said it.

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by cougarobgon

While I don't doubt there are people out there that are seeking leadership positions for the sake of recognition, I cannot recall a single instance when someone lobbyed for or tried very hard to impress me so that I would extend a calling to them within the ward leadership. And I don't think anyone lobbyed to replace me when I was released. It may be that some do seek positions in the stake leadership, but, other than the RS Presidency or SP Presidency, all other positions amount to "grunts" that need to put in a lot of time and effort into their callings to carry out their responsibilities.

I consider myself one of those you describe as eager beavers that attends all priesthood meetings, I work hard in callings and attend most if not all church functions, I know all existing leadership, and I vocally support my leaders. And I know many other individuals that are like me. However, we are not seeking leadership positions, we have made commitments and want to contribute of our time and means to what we perceive to be a good cause. Nothing wrong with that. It should not surprise you that most often than not, it is from this pool of the ward membership that individuals are called to fill leadership positions in wards and stakes. There are many humble and committed individuals who find it rewarding to serve in the church and do so not because they want to be recongized, but because they want to contribute to a good cause.

You make an assumption which I did not and do not make.

For a large part of those who seek leadership positions, I don't necessarily believe it is for recognition, but rather out of the mistaken belief that a position shows "God" is pleased with that person and that such person is living righteously. Many equate righteousness with callings. I am not seeking a response from you, but I make this admission out of personal experience when I was a missionary. I remember working hard and believing being "promoted" was a sign God was pleased with me. After a while, I recognized the ludicrous nature of my assumption, but still that's how I felt as a young missionary. And the culture promotes that thinking.

When a person is called to a position of leadership, many active members "congratulate" the member receiving it. They rush to call that person "President" or "Bishop". Status arises, and proud family members show up at the coronation. It distorts reality.

[MikeWaters]

Originally Posted by Archaea

You make an assumption which I did not and do not make.

For a large part of those who seek leadership positions, I don't necessarily believe it is for recognition, but rather out of the mistaken belief that a position shows "God" is pleased with that person and that such person is living righteously. Many equate righteousness with callings. I am not seeking a response from you, but I make this admission out of personal experience when I was a missionary. I remember working hard and believing being "promoted" was a sign God was pleased with me. After a while, I recognized the ludicrous nature of my assumption, but still that's how I felt as a young missionary. And the culture promotes that thinking.

When a person is called to a position of leadership, many active members "congratulate" the member receiving it. They rush to call that person "President" or "Bishop". Status arises, and proud family members show up at the coronation. It distorts reality.

No doubt there is status and respect accorded in callings like Bishop.

We had a brother talk about his dying wife. She was old and had terminal disease, and was afraid of dying, because she felt like she might not be worthy of meeting the Lord. Her husband comforted her, telling her she had lived a good life. She had been a relief society president, he said.

No doubt the proper inference is that he was saying she had sacrificed and served. But one doubts he would have said "but you served on the activities committee."

When God chooses you to lead, it must feel like an endorsement direct from God, for some. In my case, I think more along the lines of "Man, these people must really be scraping the bottom of the barrel to choose me."

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

No doubt there is status and respect accorded in callings like Bishop.

We had a brother talk about his dying wife. She was old and had terminal disease, and was afraid of dying, because she felt like she might not be worthy of meeting the Lord. Her husband comforted her, telling her she had lived a good life. She had been a relief society president, he said.

No doubt the proper inference is that he was saying she had sacrificed and served. But one doubts he would have said "but you served on the activities committee."

When God chooses you to lead, it must feel like an endorsement direct from God, for some. In my case, I think more along the lines of "Man, these people must really be scraping the bottom of the barrel to choose me."

Assignments are just assignments and not a recognition for righteousness. Otherwise you wouldn't have bishops called who are currently having affairs, or apostles called with twelve year affairs. Until our culture accepts this, we will experience a lot of cultural cognitive dissonance.

[Rambam]

Originally Posted by Tex

I think I'd have to understand more about what your friend meant by him seeking it. How does one do that exactly? I've never known a man to ever go to his priesthood file leader and say "I'd like to be called to be President of such-and-such" and have it actually happen.

Heaven knows there are men who see positions of authority in the church and want them, and sometimes they do get called. But how much of that comes from their own efforts, I don't know.

We teach that men are called of God by revelation. Do you believe that still?

I believe that if you have desires to serve God you are called to the work. I once did a study of how many times and ways the scriptures teach that one principle. Over and over again. You get what you want in life--and in the church.

Sometimes people get called and they didn't want to be called. But if you want to be called, there is a very high chance you will be called.

Anything short of Apostle is attainable if you want it bad enough. And It is not evil to desire to serve in Christ's Church. There are evil ways of trying to get the callings to be sure. But a desire to serve isn't evil.