Ordain Women has "forced" a conversation with the GAs? - cougarguard.com — unofficial BYU Cougars / LDS sports, football, basketball forum and message board

MikeWaters · 04-07-2014, 01:54 AM

I say that because some of the material in conference seemed to specifically address the issue of what authority and role women have in the church.

In that sense Ordain Women is getting what they want--more of a conversation and more attention to the topic.

I read in the Trib that for the first time the women leaders were seated with the 70s, instead of on the side like they had been before (I had no idea what the arrangements had been in the past, just like I had no idea that women hadn't prayed before the last conference). And that during my lifetime, women weren't allowed to pray in sacrament meeting.

All that stuff seems really weird--like why is it all necessary? And if wasn't necessary, what else is going on that is completely unnecessary?

These are strange times. The church feels roiled. Like it doesn't quite know how to respond to these social issues. First we were all-in on anti-gay marriage issues, now we are only half-in. And why aren't the leaders of the Ordain Women movement being disciplined? I imagine that the Apostles have decided that it is not in the church's interest to bring formal discipline. The publicity would be front and center.

Everything feels like it is in flux. Are we going to stick with scouting? Abandon scouting?

Where are we headed? What are we about? How do we remain (or become) vital?

ChinoCoug · 04-07-2014, 05:44 AM

Just FYI, the seating with the 70s was Fiona Givens's idea, independent of Ordain Women.

http://mormonstories.org/alternative...-ordain-women/

Archaea · 04-07-2014, 10:55 PM

Right now, no brilliant ideas have come to the fore.

It is not unusual for the Church to be late to a party such as the priesthood issue.

In the past, social issues did not move with such force and alacrity. The leadership is not adept at innovating on the fly.

The first big pushback was Proposition 8. Since that time, the Church has been on the defensive and has not won friends.

And in the women issue, its own history argues against its current stance. You have the temple language, women blessing animals and the concept women will be priestesses.

I know the Church roils against comments as to the age of its leadership, but in these matters the age is very telling. We only have one Uchtdorf.

MikeWaters · 04-08-2014, 06:37 PM

Seeing Boyd K. Packer on Sunday, I wonder if he won't be around much longer. He's almost 90 years old.

It's hard to know what kinds of discussions are going on at that level. There's probably some differences of opinions.

Relying on consensus is probably the part that hinders change the most. But the counter to that it that it protects the church from the whims of the day. It took a long, long time for all of them to be convinced that blacks being denied the priesthood was folly, but they eventually came to that decision (Harold B. Lee dying may have been an important part of that, if you believe the McKay biography).

I think I mentioned the Sltrib article that mentioned the church's internal polling showing dissatisfaction with the church among women. You'd never know that, for the most part, attending church. Because most of the very unhappy aren't there! There's lot of inactive women on the rolls. And it's not infrequent that we get someone on a new move-in report that's a woman, and when we make contact, we are asked to never make contact again.

We just leave so much talent on the bench.....we are losing more games than we need to.

MikeWaters · 04-08-2014, 06:39 PM

and without regard to chronological age, one of the very youngest, David Bednar doesn't come across any "younger" than anyone else.

ChinoCoug · 04-08-2014, 07:31 PM

Despite his age, he is more conservative. He railed hard against plastic surgery at a regional conference.

Archaea · 04-10-2014, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

and without regard to chronological age, one of the very youngest, David Bednar doesn't come across any "younger" than anyone else.

Bednar seems to be McKonkie, JFS, 2.0, with a softer sale.

Uchtdorf gives me hope. Bednar does not.

The Church does not seem to have any momentum within the US. I can't speak for outside the US, as I don't know if there is momentum of any significance anywhere. In many countries activity rates are very low and we don't have the wealth elsewhere that exists in the US.

Maybe tithing will be raised to twenty percent.

MikeWaters · 04-10-2014, 08:32 PM

Quote:

The number of convert baptisms was disappointingly low compared to the number of missionaries serving. The average number of converts baptized per missionary dropped to a new all-time low of 3.4 converts baptized per missionary.

http://ldschurchgrowth.blogspot.com/...al-report.html

So much for "the surge".

That's what happens when you have a large influx of very immature kids (relative to what you had before), without great planning on where to put them. Meaning you have a lot more missionaries now in areas that were considered tough (cause those are the places that we had pulled back from).

ChinoCoug · 04-10-2014, 09:46 PM

His article on convert baptisms per $ spent on missionary work is far more depressing.

SoonerCoug · 07-18-2014, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

http://ldschurchgrowth.blogspot.com/...al-report.html

So much for "the surge".

That's what happens when you have a large influx of very immature kids (relative to what you had before), without great planning on where to put them. Meaning you have a lot more missionaries now in areas that were considered tough (cause those are the places that we had pulled back from).

I see lots of 18-year-old missionaries wandering the streets carrying mcdonalds. Honestly I just feel bad for them. They are victims of mismanagement.

What an amazing workforce for good they could be if all they did was humanitarian work!

04-07-2014, 01:54 AM	#1
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	Ordain Women has "forced" a conversation with the GAs? I say that because some of the material in conference seemed to specifically address the issue of what authority and role women have in the church. In that sense Ordain Women is getting what they want--more of a conversation and more attention to the topic. I read in the Trib that for the first time the women leaders were seated with the 70s, instead of on the side like they had been before (I had no idea what the arrangements had been in the past, just like I had no idea that women hadn't prayed before the last conference). And that during my lifetime, women weren't allowed to pray in sacrament meeting. All that stuff seems really weird--like why is it all necessary? And if wasn't necessary, what else is going on that is completely unnecessary? These are strange times. The church feels roiled. Like it doesn't quite know how to respond to these social issues. First we were all-in on anti-gay marriage issues, now we are only half-in. And why aren't the leaders of the Ordain Women movement being disciplined? I imagine that the Apostles have decided that it is not in the church's interest to bring formal discipline. The publicity would be front and center. Everything feels like it is in flux. Are we going to stick with scouting? Abandon scouting? Where are we headed? What are we about? How do we remain (or become) vital?

04-07-2014, 10:55 PM	#3
Archaea Assistant to the Regional Manager Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: The Orgasmatron Posts: 24,338	Right now, no brilliant ideas have come to the fore. It is not unusual for the Church to be late to a party such as the priesthood issue. In the past, social issues did not move with such force and alacrity. The leadership is not adept at innovating on the fly. The first big pushback was Proposition 8. Since that time, the Church has been on the defensive and has not won friends. And in the women issue, its own history argues against its current stance. You have the temple language, women blessing animals and the concept women will be priestesses. I know the Church roils against comments as to the age of its leadership, but in these matters the age is very telling. We only have one Uchtdorf. __________________ Ἓν οἶδα ὅτι οὐδὲν οἶδα

04-07-2014, 05:44 AM	#2
ChinoCoug Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: NOVA Posts: 3,005	Just FYI, the seating with the 70s was Fiona Givens's idea, independent of Ordain Women. http://mormonstories.org/alternative...-ordain-women/

04-08-2014, 06:37 PM	#4
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	Seeing Boyd K. Packer on Sunday, I wonder if he won't be around much longer. He's almost 90 years old. It's hard to know what kinds of discussions are going on at that level. There's probably some differences of opinions. Relying on consensus is probably the part that hinders change the most. But the counter to that it that it protects the church from the whims of the day. It took a long, long time for all of them to be convinced that blacks being denied the priesthood was folly, but they eventually came to that decision (Harold B. Lee dying may have been an important part of that, if you believe the McKay biography). I think I mentioned the Sltrib article that mentioned the church's internal polling showing dissatisfaction with the church among women. You'd never know that, for the most part, attending church. Because most of the very unhappy aren't there! There's lot of inactive women on the rolls. And it's not infrequent that we get someone on a new move-in report that's a woman, and when we make contact, we are asked to never make contact again. We just leave so much talent on the bench.....we are losing more games than we need to.

04-08-2014, 06:39 PM	#5
MikeWaters Demiurge Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 36,365	and without regard to chronological age, one of the very youngest, David Bednar doesn't come across any "younger" than anyone else.

04-08-2014, 07:31 PM	#6
ChinoCoug Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: NOVA Posts: 3,005	Despite his age, he is more conservative. He railed hard against plastic surgery at a regional conference.

04-10-2014, 09:46 PM	#9
ChinoCoug Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: NOVA Posts: 3,005	His article on convert baptisms per $ spent on missionary work is far more depressing.