For the non-believers who served missions

[TheSizzle36]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

Months or years later. Can't remember.

I believe that God is like a parent. He wants us to grow up and be like him. Responsible. Decision-makers. Hence he allows us to go it on our own quite a bit. This is my opinion.

Now if no prayer were ever answered, then yes, it would seem like prayer was a waste of time. I'll grant you that. But I believe, as one matures, one realizes that things aren't as black and white as "God says yes" and "God says no."

This notion of God not answering all prayers is not my own. I believe it is peppered through all kinds of talks, articles, etc.

I would tend to agree with this exactly.

I had a roommate who would literally pray about everything... I swear he would pray about what to have for dinner that night... do you think it matters enough to get an answer?

I also struggled with prayer for a long time, and to this day, I still do. But I believe what I believe and I can accept and understand those who don't believe the same as me.

[OhioBlue]

I'm still active but honestly had nightmares about my mission after returning. I know that's not what you asked but I wanted to share. I learned a lot, but would REALLY not like to ever have to repeat that again.

Another random thought--the more I see discussions like these (and elsewhere on this and many other forums) that put the existence of God and other religious matters to an intellectual test, the more I become convinced that there is a way to rationalize anything in the LDS religion, just as there is a way to rationalize your way right out of it. Both sets of intellectual conclusions are equally valid if considered only on the merits of their cognitive processes. But the main difference is not that one explanation sounds better, or even makes more sense. Heck, there's a TON of stuff in LDS belief that doesn't make much sense. No, the main difference is faith. More specifically, where one decides to put his or her faith. For every intellectual explanation of what it means to get personal revelation, have a testimony, or feel the love of God in one's life, there is an equally valid intellectual explanation of how it's created, an artifact of emotion, attributable to the will to believe more than to actual truth.

Said differently (i'm rambling I know), you can 'think' religion, the existence of God, the power of prayers, whether it's all true, etc etc etc down until I believe you reach one of two inevitable choices (this latter word is used quite intentionally):

Either it's true or it's not.

And I believe that with the lofty claims made by LDS believers, you can go even further and come down to a choice between either it's all true, every bit of it...or it's not. None of it.

Kind of cool that it all comes down for me anyway to a choice between those two alternatives, at least for LDS truth claims. Ambiguity makes the call for faith either in one's own intellect and reasoning ability, or the call for faith in something unknown, unthinkable, beyond capacity to be reasoned.

For now we see through a glass darkly. No doubt about that.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by Robin

The strength of my testimony was largely a product of my environment.

I happen to be reading a novel by Isaac Beshevis Singer called "The Slave." The protagonist is a Jew name Jacob, and the novel is set in 16th Century Poland. When it opens Jacob is a slave owned by a peasant in the mountains, after a number of years before Christian Cosaacks massacred everyone in his Jewish village except Jacob, including his wife and children. His owner's beautiful widowed daughter is throwing herself at him, as she realizes that Jacob, being literate and well-read in contrast to the local peasantry as well as handsome, is a cut above every other elegible man in the area. Jacob loves her, but secretly, because lying with or marrying a gentile is a mortal sin in his religion. He pretends to be indifferent. Each day he performs his ablutions and other rites of worship. All his books are burned, but he recites Jewish scriptures form memory, and copies them down on a large rock outside his hovel (he has no writing implements or paper).

Jacob has three choices: 1) abandon his religion, convert to Chritianity, marry the girl, and inherit his father in-law's estate; 2) induce her to convert to Judaism, which she has offered to do, and escape to a far away place, because a Christian marrying a Jew is punishable by death of both the couple in 17th Century Poland; or 3) remain a slave and probably wind up murdered by one of the local peasants who thinks his very presence is bringing down famine, pestilence, etc.

I've read a number of Singer's works, and knowing his predilections, I'm betting on no. 2), and a tragic ending.

[nuclearunderpants]

I will not reveal what the two experiences that I had that felt positively to be answers from God that proved to be false. They are very personal.

Quote:
"I personally wouldn't understand your current happiness with your wife as reason to believe that answer you received was false."

I received an answer that we shouldn't get married. She received an answer that we should. There are a number of possibilities, including:

1. She received an answer and I did not ---or vice versa
2. God didn't answer either of us for a bunch of possible reasons. He wanted us to make our own decisions, he didn't care, etc.
3. God answered both of us but it was a test for us or fun game for him
4. We misunderstood an answer
5. There is no God and no answer

The list could go on and on. My overriding issue with prayer is that the subject is interpreting the outcome through the religious system they believe in. Any inconsistencies are reasoned away or ignored. The thousands of believers in disparate religions who receive happy answers to prayers lead me to believe that they're producing their own peace and happiness. The receive what they want to receive.

[ute4ever]

Originally Posted by nuclearunderpants

I've only had a couple of experiences where I can say that prayer was positive and possibly answered. I've had countless experiences where I needed help and guidance and got nothing.

A few lessons ago in this year's Wilford Woodruff manual, he relayed a mission story where he was afflicted with pain and suffering, and said a nighttime prayer asking to be healed. In the morning, he was healed, and "gave thanks and went on [his] way rejoicing."

The cynical comment running through my head while reading that was, the reason he rejoiced was because he actually had a prayer answered for once.

Getting the silent treatment from God is nothing new. It happened to Christ while upon the cross. It happens to the best of us. What I've learned is God is not going to hold my hand through life, even on issues that seem important to me.

[ute4ever]

Originally Posted by nuclearunderpants

I received an answer that we shouldn't get married. She received an answer that we should.

Or so she says.

I'm sorry to sound presumptuous, but that's one of the oldest tricks in the latter-day book, when one party tells his/her God-fearing mate that he/she has received "an answer."

For example, a wife wants a baby and tells the husband she's been having premonitions, dreams, and/or answers to prayer that now is the time. The husband has no such experience. Suppose the God-fearing husband comes across a Church News snippet relaying something to the effect of, the Prophets have repeatedly commanded the saints not to postpone child-bearing in order to first finish school or become more financially secure. The God-fearing husband takes that as his answer, believing he is doing the right thing.

Wife gets the baby.

[Archaea]

Interesting response NUP.

For me, I've never really received many responses to prayer in prayer. Rare if ever.

Almost all of my responses are while I doing something related to what I prayed for, that the answer comes to me. Now I'm fairly dense and don't get it, but I understand frustration with prayer.

One of my problems is an unwillingness to accept "NO."

Another problem is whisperings are difficult to interpret. But this rule is true for me. If I pray for somebody else, the answer comes more easily, but if it is for me personally, it takes years and almost without exception not in prayer.

I remembe discussing it with a leader once, and he made me feel bad, by stating how he could easily interpret what inspiration he was receiving and that I must not be obeying or listening very well.

Nonetheless, my lack of ability to hear the Divine has not lessened my faith in the Divine, only in my faith in myself. So I make the pragmatic decision to drudge along and to do my best so that my kids can have good opportunities. I don't expect peace but discomfort from my relation with the Divine, the discomfort of making me get off my arse. But that's just me, I wouldn't be comfortable feeling comfort.

[ute4ever]

Originally Posted by Archaea

Nonetheless, my lack of ability to hear the Divine has not lessened my faith in the Divine, only in my faith in myself.

When I experience the void in my life, I usually realize that I am not living as obedient to the gospel that I could. I mean, sure my behavior is leaps and bounds above what I see amongst my SoCal peers, but remains below the standard that God expects. Someone can be temple worthy (as simple as the questions are) and still be cutting corners.

And honestly I'm thankful for His refusal to yield. If I want to hear from Him, I must be worthy to hear from Him. If He were to entertain me under any other circumstance He would be telling me that a lesser performance is acceptable and thus damning my eternal progress.

[fuegote]

I'm happy i've received enough revelation to know the work is true...

and I'm happy I'm not smart enough to find every possible reason to contradict that feeling.

[Colly Wolly]

Originally Posted by fuegote

I'm happy i've received enough revelation to know the work is true...

and I'm happy I'm not smart enough to find every possible reason to contradict that feeling.

Well said.