Nibley's Leaders to Managers: The Fatal Shift

[Frank Ryan]

Originally Posted by Sleeping in EQ

Approaching Zion is, hands down, his most enduring work.

and i argee 100%

[Solon]

Originally Posted by All-American

Nibley was loose with the facts because he was unchallenged, by and large. Very few had the capacity or the desire to call his stuff into question.

Being loose with some facts, especially when they aren't the primary focus of the study at hand, doesn't seem to be a problem that is pecluliarly Nibley-esque, or even a problem of his time period. That's the one of the problems I find with history. The thing that has amazed me most in my history studies is how subjective the studies really are. It seems at times almost as imprecise a science as outright fiction.

I agree that history is a subjective field - that's why I prefer to consider it part of the humanities - but ancient history is a different bird from more modern periods. Generally, our "primary" sources are really "secondary." Sure, we have inscriptions and coins, but few letters and documents have survived - none really outside of Egypt. All we have are Thucydides' or Herodotus' versions of events . . . if we are going to throw them out as inaccurate or too subjective, we essentially have nothing left.

So, I agree with your subjectivity observation, but I tend towards a harsher judgment against Nibley. Interpretation is always debatable; fabricating sources isn't. This talk was from 1983 - hardly a lifetime ago.

I just wish the LDS wouldn't lionize him so.

[All-American]

Originally Posted by Solon

I agree that history is a subjective field - that's why I prefer to consider it part of the humanities - but ancient history is a different bird from more modern periods. Generally, our "primary" sources are really "secondary." Sure, we have inscriptions and coins, but few letters and documents have survived - none really outside of Egypt. All we have are Thucydides' or Herodotus' versions of events . . . if we are going to throw them out as inaccurate or too subjective, we essentially have nothing left.

So, I agree with your subjectivity observation, but I tend towards a harsher judgment against Nibley. Interpretation is always debatable; fabricating sources isn't. This talk was from 1983 - hardly a lifetime ago.

I just wish the LDS wouldn't lionize him so.

The stuff going on in 1983 still goes on in 2007. Like I said, I'm always surprised with how sketchy some of the stuff that I read can get. If I am less harsh in judging Nibley, it is because 1), the historical bits are not the main focus of this address anyway; and 2), Nibley is one of the big reasons scholasticism at BYU has progressed to the point that BYU grads are able to recognize errors in his methods.

"Condemn me not because of mine imperfection . . . but rather give thanks unto God that he hath made manifest unto you our imperfections, that ye may learn to be more wise than we have been."

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by All-American

The stuff going on in 1983 still goes on in 2007. Like I said, I'm always surprised with how sketchy some of the stuff that I read can get. If I am less harsh in judging Nibley, it is because 1), the historical bits are not the main focus of this address anyway; and 2), Nibley is one of the big reasons scholasticism at BYU has progressed to the point that BYU grads are able to recognize errors in his methods.

"Condemn me not because of mine imperfection . . . but rather give thanks unto God that he hath made manifest unto you our imperfections, that ye may learn to be more wise than we have been."

Excellent points. If it weren't for BH Roberts and Nibley, we wouldn't know enough to see his errors. You are wise for your young years.

[All-American]

Originally Posted by Solon

This talk was from 1983 - hardly a lifetime ago.

And by the way, for SOME of us, 1983 IS a lifetime ago.

[Solon]

Originally Posted by All-American

And by the way, for SOME of us, 1983 IS a lifetime ago.

OUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You don't have to rub it in that I'm 30 and STILL IN SCHOOL!!!!!!!!

[Archaea]

Originally Posted by Solon

OUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You don't have to rub it in that I'm 30 and STILL IN SCHOOL!!!!!!!!

Yeah Seattle had his law degree by then and I was finishing up my undergraduate degree and BYU71 was married making his second million.

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by Archaea

Yeah Seattle had his law degree by then and I was finishing up my undergraduate degree and BYU71 was married making his second million.

I finished my undergraduate in 1982, and got my law degree in 1986. Archea is north of 45 super jock though he is.

[All-American]

Originally Posted by Solon

OUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You don't have to rub it in that I'm 30 and STILL IN SCHOOL!!!!!!!!

I'm not getting at that so much as the fact that for me, it is, quite literally, a lifetime ago. When Hugh Nibley was giving this address, I was swimming around in ambiotic fluid.