Some answers to the Meadow Massacre

[ute4ever]

Richard E. Turley Jr., managing director of the Family and Church History Dept., gave the following reasons why he believes Brigham Young did not order the massacre:

1) The day after the massacre, William Dame and Isaac Haight (stake presidents in Parowan and Cedar City), and Iron County Militia officers, all argued on the field over who was responsible and how they were going to report it to Brigham Young. If Young had ordered the massacre, Dame and Haight would not have argued about the matter.

2) During his lifetime, John D. Lee, who played a major role in the massacre, consistently held that Brigham Young was innocent. Statements to the contrary in his posthumously published memoirs appear to have been added by his lawyer to make the book more sensational. The lawyer received the book's proceeds as payment for his legal services.

3) Massacre participants were later interviewed confidentially by GA's Francis M. Lyman, Abraham H. Cannon and David O. McKay, as well as Assistant Church Historian Andrew Jensen. If Brigham Young had ordered the massacre, the participants could have excused their roles in the crime by citing his orders, but none did.

4) In response to a letter from Isaac Haight, Brigham Young sent directions to let the emigrants pass. Some conspiracy theorists have tried to interpret the letter to mean the opposite of its plain intent, but the reactions of church members in southern Utah show that they took it to mean just what it said.

Source: Church News, June 2, 2007, 5.

[Requiem]

Originally Posted by ute4ever

Massacre participants were later interviewed confidentially by GA's Francis M. Lyman, Abraham H. Cannon and David O. McKay, as well as Assistant Church Historian Andrew Jensen. If Brigham Young had ordered the massacre, the participants could have excused their roles in the crime by citing his orders, but none did.

Thank you for referencing this article. I found the commentaries of both Richard Turley and Ron Walker to be particularly open and genuine. Noteworthy were their repeated comments referring to MMM as a tragedy and the acknowledgements that Church members organized and perpetrated the events.

The article's timing was impeccable - particularly with the upcoming release of the MMM movie "September Dawn". I grow weary of the endless arguments re: BY's involvement. These circular discussions are not germane to our salvation. Creekster eloquently addressed the essence of this topic eariler this week:

"The real work in the kingdom, I think, is not figuring out what Brigham taught at the veil (or similar), but is found in serving those around us."

I know there are many on this board who love to evoke philosophical thoughts and wax eloquently about their abundant reading and superior intelligence. While interesting, they stray from expressing useful thoughts that ring with clarity and value. I much prefer the simple words of St. Augustine:

I have read in Plato and Cicero sayings that are wise and very beautiful;
but I have never read in either of them:
"Come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden."

[SeattleUte]

Originally Posted by Requiem

I know there are many on this board who love to evoke philosophical thoughts and wax eloquently about their abundant reading and superior intelligence. While interesting, they stray from expressing useful thoughts that ring with clarity and value. I much prefer the simple words of St. Augustine:

I have read in Plato and Cicero sayings that are wise and very beautiful;
but I have never read in either of them:
"Come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden."

I am a great fan of Augustine as those who have been here for a while know, and have quoted him here a few times. However, I think that his and creekster's point is better made by the King James Bible in 1 Cor. 13:1-8. Actually, I think that may be the most eloquent statement of creekster's point on the face of the earth. Moreover, I think that Augustine isn't being really fair to Plato and Cicero since they did actually many times express in their own words the concept expressed so well in 1 Cor. 13:1-8. (Augustine was not a man without some axes to grind and torments of his own.) It really is not a concept that originated with Christianity. Hardly.

[Requiem]

Originally Posted by SeattleUte

I am a great fan of Augustine as those who have been here for a while know, and have quoted him here a few times. However, I think that his and creekster's point is better made by the King James Bible in 1 Cor. 13:1-8. Actually, I think that may be the most eloquent statement of creekster's point on the face of the earth. Moreover, I think that Augustine isn't being really fair to Plato and Cicero since they did actually many times express in their own words the concept expressed so well in 1 Cor. 13:1-8. (Augustine was not a man without some axes to grind and torments of his own.) It really is not a concept that originated with Christianity. Hardly.

I don't dispute your points about 1 Cor 13:1-8 or Augustine's internal torments. Today I am searching for simple and meaningful answers to provide to a colleague who is struggling with finding the essence of God (in the interest of full disclosure, she is also investigating the Church).

She recently visited the Holocaust Museum and was reduced to tears by the thought of how could the just and loving God espoused by Christianity tolerate cruelty on such a scale. Her internal torments were compounded today by the tragedy of Kelsey Smith's abduction and death. I am searching for a substantive response and welcome any thoughts.

[Black Diamond Bay]

Originally Posted by Requiem

I don't dispute your points about 1 Cor 13:1-8 or Augustine's internal torments. Today I am searching for simple and meaningful answers to provide to a colleague who is struggling with finding the essence of God (in the interest of full disclosure, she is also investigating the Church).

She recently visited the Holocaust Museum and was reduced to tears by the thought of how could the just and loving God espoused by Christianity tolerate cruelty on such a scale. Her internal torments were compounded today by the tragedy of Kelsey Smith's abduction and death. I am searching for a substantive response and welcome any thoughts.

Try this one:
Alma 60:13 "For the Lord suffereth the righteous to be slain that his justice and judgment may come upon the wicked; therefore ye need not suppose that the righteous are lost because they are slain; but behold, they do enter into the rest of the Lord their God."

[jay santos]

Originally Posted by ute4ever

Richard E. Turley Jr., managing director of the Family and Church History Dept., gave the following reasons why he believes Brigham Young did not order the massacre:

1) The day after the massacre, William Dame and Isaac Haight (stake presidents in Parowan and Cedar City), and Iron County Militia officers, all argued on the field over who was responsible and how they were going to report it to Brigham Young. If Young had ordered the massacre, Dame and Haight would not have argued about the matter.

2) During his lifetime, John D. Lee, who played a major role in the massacre, consistently held that Brigham Young was innocent. Statements to the contrary in his posthumously published memoirs appear to have been added by his lawyer to make the book more sensational. The lawyer received the book's proceeds as payment for his legal services.

3) Massacre participants were later interviewed confidentially by GA's Francis M. Lyman, Abraham H. Cannon and David O. McKay, as well as Assistant Church Historian Andrew Jensen. If Brigham Young had ordered the massacre, the participants could have excused their roles in the crime by citing his orders, but none did.

4) In response to a letter from Isaac Haight, Brigham Young sent directions to let the emigrants pass. Some conspiracy theorists have tried to interpret the letter to mean the opposite of its plain intent, but the reactions of church members in southern Utah show that they took it to mean just what it said.

Source: Church News, June 2, 2007, 5.

Thanks for the info. But I really don't get the energy behind this. It doesn't matter to me in the least that BY did or didn't give the order and the church did or didn't cover it up.

[Black Diamond Bay]

Originally Posted by jay santos

Thanks for the info. But I really don't get the energy behind this. It doesn't matter to me in the least that BY did or didn't give the order and the church did or didn't cover it up.

I agree with this. If BY gave the order...well, I don't love it, but it doesn't make him any less of a prophet in my eyes, and it doesn't rattle my testimony to think that the church tried to cover it up.

[Requiem]

Originally Posted by Black Diamond Bay

Try this one:
Alma 60:13 "For the Lord suffereth the righteous to be slain that his justice and judgment may come upon the wicked; therefore ye need not suppose that the righteous are lost because they are slain; but behold, they do enter into the rest of the Lord their God."

Perfect - thank you. Answer to a prayer.

[non sequitur]

Originally Posted by Black Diamond Bay

I agree with this. If BY gave the order...well, I don't love it, but it doesn't make him any less of a prophet in my eyes, and it doesn't rattle my testimony to think that the church tried to cover it up.

You can't possibly be serious. If BY ordered MMM, then he's a mass-murderer. Charles Manson is a wannabe mass-murderer compared to BY if he did indeed order the murder of those immigrants. How can you possibly reconcile a person capable of that kind of evil being a prophet of God? I'm not saying BY ordered the murders, but if he did there is no way an intelligent person could say the guy was one of God's chosen. I think you owe God an apology.