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#61 | |
Charon
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: In the heart of darkness (Provo)
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How is that someone can be temple-worthy but should be kicked out of the BSA?
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"... the arc of the universe is long but it bends toward justice." Martin Luther King, Jr. |
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#62 | |
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I didn't realize the BSA checked temple recommends. Do they require scoutmasters to abstain from alcohol too?
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"Have we been commanded not to call a prophet an insular racist? Link?" "And yes, [2010] is a very good year to be a Democrat. Perhaps the best year in decades ..." - Cali Coug "Oh dear, granny, what a long tail our puss has got." - Brigham Young |
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#63 |
Charon
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Bumping up against the wall of simple logic, Tex resorts to gibberish. Debate over.
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"... the arc of the universe is long but it bends toward justice." Martin Luther King, Jr. |
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#64 | |
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The standards are different. The BSA does not require scoutmasters to be worthy temple recommend holders. Parenthetically, it's interesting you'd bring that up anyway, given that on CG temple recommend status is viewed as a false measure of righteousness.
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"Have we been commanded not to call a prophet an insular racist? Link?" "And yes, [2010] is a very good year to be a Democrat. Perhaps the best year in decades ..." - Cali Coug "Oh dear, granny, what a long tail our puss has got." - Brigham Young |
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#65 | |
Charon
Join Date: Jan 2006
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BTW (forgive me for repeating this story), I had a conversation with a high-level GA a few years ago and he told that the decision by the church to take a hard-line stance on this issue was far from unanimous. Quite a few thought it was a bad idea. In the end, they were out-voted.
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"... the arc of the universe is long but it bends toward justice." Martin Luther King, Jr. |
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#66 | ||
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The first and best reason I can think of is simple practicality. As you point out, the BSA does not want to spend its time policing its leaders' sexual habits. The obvious problem with a behavior-based policy is a situation where a gay man claims to be celibate but isn't, placing the burden of proof, if you will, on the BSA to demonstrate otherwise. More complex than that is the case where a perfectly honest and celibate gay man is accused of not being so--maybe by other leaders, maybe by parents--again placing the BSA in the awkward position of trying to sort it out. This is a perfectly legitimate (and most likely) reason for the policy, IMO. Second, the holy grail of the gay community is legitimacy. More than anything, they want broad society-wide acceptance. They've engineered their language to this purpose: changing the traditional definition of marriage, insisting it's not a choice, etc. Tell me, can you explain the difference between a gay man, and a straight man who struggles with same-sex attraction? I submit the only difference is semantics. The former term implies an immutable trait; the latter, a personal temptation. I have yet to meet a vocally homosexual person who adopts the latter stance. Maybe they exist and don't speak out, or maybe they don't exist. I don't know. In any case, it's understandable to me that the BSA does not wish to legitimize the behavior by putting people who adopt that belief in leadership positions, even if they aren't "practicing." To employ an imperfect analogy: I wouldn't want a leader who personally believed that the desire to steal was normal and God-given, but who had just chosen not to do it. The third and perhaps least compelling but still legitimate reason, is simply that their constituency doesn't want it. While I'm sure there are some involved in BSA who support having homosexual leaders, I sense the larger share of leaders and parents oppose it. I disagree with you that this is institutionalized bigotry, but either way, a private organization has a right to respond to the desires of its membership if it so chooses. Sorry it's so long. I tried to be brief, but it's a complex issue. Quote:
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"Have we been commanded not to call a prophet an insular racist? Link?" "And yes, [2010] is a very good year to be a Democrat. Perhaps the best year in decades ..." - Cali Coug "Oh dear, granny, what a long tail our puss has got." - Brigham Young Last edited by Tex; 10-31-2008 at 02:25 PM. |
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#67 | |||||||
Charon
Join Date: Jan 2006
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A noble apologetic attempt, but thoroughly unconvincing.
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Your last sentence implicitly states that being gay (SSA) is a personal choice. Even the LDS church has moved beyond that. Quote:
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Ironically, he is widely viewed as a conservative GA.
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"... the arc of the universe is long but it bends toward justice." Martin Luther King, Jr. |
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#68 | ||||
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I wasn't expecting you to be convinced.
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As for discrimination, you're just using that term to browbeat. Did you marry the first girl you went on a date with? Did you hire the first guy that applied for an open position? Do they let anyone who walks through the front door of the temple into an endowment room? We discriminate all the time. Whether that's right or wrong depends on the why, and for what. If an organization feels that including people who espouse immoral beliefs would legitimize those beliefs, it's perfectly right for them to discriminate on that basis. Quote:
Speaking strictly of terminology, I don't believe that being gay (in the sense the gay community intends it) and struggling with SSA are the same thing. As I said, one implies that it is an immutable personal trait, like the color of your eyes; the other, that it is a weakness that must be contended with. The latter is consistent with current church teachings. I think the comparison of being a scoutmaster to being a temple recommend holder is a bad one, and I said that at the outset. When the BSA starts removing people because they don't sustain the Prophet and/or don't believe in Jesus Christ and/or don't attend all their church meetings faithfully, then we'll talk comparisons. Quote:
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All I know is, based on my own personal experience with church leadership, important issues are not decided democratically. People are invited to share their opinions and often they differ, sometimes sharply. In the end, the presiding authority makes a decision based on his best judgment and the influence of the spirit, and it is incumbent on those over whom he presides to sustain the decision. Even as a figure of speech the term "vote" is a poor one.
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"Have we been commanded not to call a prophet an insular racist? Link?" "And yes, [2010] is a very good year to be a Democrat. Perhaps the best year in decades ..." - Cali Coug "Oh dear, granny, what a long tail our puss has got." - Brigham Young Last edited by Tex; 10-31-2008 at 03:52 PM. |
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#69 | |
Charon
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: In the heart of darkness (Provo)
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I don't know if I have ever met another person so smart, yet so intellectually dishonest. I guess that's part of the reason that I find debating you so exasperating. I shouldn't let it bother me so much, but it does.
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"... the arc of the universe is long but it bends toward justice." Martin Luther King, Jr. |
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#70 | |
Senior Member
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I am curious, though: does "pretty creative piece of bullshit" count as gibberish? I wonder if that's what your GA friend told his fellow GAs after his side lost the "vote." If you are incapable of having a conversation without getting so "exasperated" and "bothered" that you can't bear to read another's view, next time, please stay out of it.
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"Have we been commanded not to call a prophet an insular racist? Link?" "And yes, [2010] is a very good year to be a Democrat. Perhaps the best year in decades ..." - Cali Coug "Oh dear, granny, what a long tail our puss has got." - Brigham Young |
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