adam/god theory as it extends to the creation....

[fusnik11]

and further evidence dan might be right! :wink:

if you look at the creation of the world as symbollism of our own personal creation and adam and eve being in fact as us you get model of how we are created....

a. spiritual creation=world spiritually created...
b. placenta forming=waters seperating.....
c. sexual development in fetus=adams ability to procreate before fall....
d. birth=fall.....
e. maturation through life=adam learning what it is to be alive....
f. adam=flesh, eve=spirit....

interesting enough soon after adam has had children and the gospel is being preached to them the world becomes so wicked it needs a rebirth. so noah comes along and with his family builds an arc and off they go sailing the floods. but look at the parallels...

a. ark=uterus
b. noah on the ark=person not knowing surroundings fetus
c. waters break land found=birth
d. noah repopulates and relearns the new earth=maturation through life...

if these events looked at as symbollic events of creations, and literal rebirths, could this be used as scriptural evidence of the adam/god theory?

[Dan]

[/quote]and further evidence dan might be right!

if you look at the creation of the world as symbollism of our own personal creation and adam and eve being in fact as us you get model of how we are created....

a. spiritual creation=world spiritually created...
b. placenta forming=waters seperating.....
c. sexual development in fetus=adams ability to procreate before fall....
d. birth=fall.....
e. maturation through life=adam learning what it is to be alive....
f. adam=flesh, eve=spirit....


Well, Fusnik, I would not look at it so much as if I am right, as it is really hard to say what is "right" or "wrong" when interpreting spiritual layers of a parable.

But, if the above theme is on to something, let's take it a step further ...

1. The creation is about YOUR personal creation.

2. All aspects of the creation denote something of significance about YOU.

3. If all things are about YOU (at least on one level of understanding), then YOU are the FATHER. The scriptures are quite clear that you are one with the infinite intelligence. If you were not at one with it, you could not exist. You just do not realize you are at one with it because you are fallen and carnal and sensual, etc. The physical fall took place at birth, but the spiritual fall is ILLUSION. It is illusion because you are always at one with the infinite intelligence of God. You just do not realize it until you are born again and stop partaking of the fruit of the ToKoGaE (i.e., stop living as the natural man). IOW, the Father represents your infinite intelligence within you. Your intelligence is "Michael", creator of this world (i.e., your body). YOU (your infinite intelligence within you) are Michael!

4. YOU (your spirit) are Adam.

5. YOU (your body) are Eve.

6. Michael/Adam/Eve form a perfect tripartite being, as long as Adam hearkens to the infinite intelligence within him and Eve hearkens to Adam (i.e., spirit hearkens to light of christ and body hearkens to spirit).

7. Now for the cruel joke. You can't help but laugh when it dawns on you. YOU are Lucifer! Yes you! Luficer represents the desires of the flesh that tempt the flesh. Lucifer is the carnal and sensual urges we all face internally. Lucifer can only find sway over Adam by first tempting Eve. The desires of the flesh cannot overcome your spirit unless the flesh gives into the urges and overcomes the spirit. Lucifer, the desires of the flesh, causes YOUR spiritual fall (i.e., causes you to THINK you are alienated from God) because he is successful in getting each of us from infancy to hearken to the weakness of our flesh. Knowledge is power and when one is reborn spiritually an instant change takes place (a baptism of fire represented by passing through the cherubim and flaming sword guarding the way back to the ToL). One cannot partake of the ToL unless reborn. But Lucifer is only doing what is done on other worlds (i.e., every other person born is susceptible to the urges and desires of their flesh.

Now go back and look at what BY said about Adam being God. Michael the archangel is the same being as Adam who was placed in the garden. Adam/Michael is our Father and our God and the only God with whom we have to do. BY would be dead on, IMO, if he was referring to things spiritually. I would have no qualms with any of it. He may still have been right literally too, but I do not know. I just find it all interesting.

[SoCalCoug]

Layers upon layers upon layers of symbolism.

Great discussion. Definitely something I'm going to give thought to for a while. I had never made that symbolic connection.

You know, fusnik, you get a bad rap over at the other place. You're a lot deeper than people give you credit for.

[MikeWaters]

"Friend" told me he is reading a thesis/dissertation on Adam-God right now. He may have some additional comments shortly.

My only comment, Dan, is that the idea of overcoming the body seems too simplistic. Isn't gaining a body a wonderful thing that is required for exaltation? Don't we somehow become more perfect with this body? Won't we feel imprisoned without it (i.e. spirit world)?

What are carnal desires? Is sex with your wife carnal?

There is a certain asceticism implied in your thoughts that I'm not sure I agree with.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by Dan

and further evidence dan might be right!

if you look at the creation of the world as symbollism of our own personal creation and adam and eve being in fact as us you get model of how we are created....

a. spiritual creation=world spiritually created...
b. placenta forming=waters seperating.....
c. sexual development in fetus=adams ability to procreate before fall....
d. birth=fall.....
e. maturation through life=adam learning what it is to be alive....
f. adam=flesh, eve=spirit....


Well, Fusnik, I would not look at it so much as if I am right, as it is really hard to say what is "right" or "wrong" when interpreting spiritual layers of a parable.

But, if the above theme is on to something, let's take it a step further ...

1. The creation is about YOUR personal creation.

2. All aspects of the creation denote something of significance about YOU.

3. If all things are about YOU (at least on one level of understanding), then YOU are the FATHER. The scriptures are quite clear that you are one with the infinite intelligence. If you were not at one with it, you could not exist. You just do not realize you are at one with it because you are fallen and carnal and sensual, etc. The physical fall took place at birth, but the spiritual fall is ILLUSION. It is illusion because you are always at one with the infinite intelligence of God. You just do not realize it until you are born again and stop partaking of the fruit of the ToKoGaE (i.e., stop living as the natural man). IOW, the Father represents your infinite intelligence within you. Your intelligence is "Michael", creator of this world (i.e., your body). YOU (your infinite intelligence within you) are Michael!

4. YOU (your spirit) are Adam.

5. YOU (your body) are Eve.

6. Michael/Adam/Eve form a perfect tripartite being, as long as Adam hearkens to the infinite intelligence within him and Eve hearkens to Adam (i.e., spirit hearkens to light of christ and body hearkens to spirit).

7. Now for the cruel joke. You can't help but laugh when it dawns on you. YOU are Lucifer! Yes you! Luficer represents the desires of the flesh that tempt the flesh. Lucifer is the carnal and sensual urges we all face internally. Lucifer can only find sway over Adam by first tempting Eve. The desires of the flesh cannot overcome your spirit unless the flesh gives into the urges and overcomes the spirit. Lucifer, the desires of the flesh, causes YOUR spiritual fall (i.e., causes you to THINK you are alienated from God) because he is successful in getting each of us from infancy to hearken to the weakness of our flesh. Knowledge is power and when one is reborn spiritually an instant change takes place (a baptism of fire represented by passing through the cherubim and flaming sword guarding the way back to the ToL). One cannot partake of the ToL unless reborn. But Lucifer is only doing what is done on other worlds (i.e., every other person born is susceptible to the urges and desires of their flesh.

Now go back and look at what BY said about Adam being God. Michael the archangel is the same being as Adam who was placed in the garden. Adam/Michael is our Father and our God and the only God with whom we have to do. BY would be dead on, IMO, if he was referring to things spiritually. I would have no qualms with any of it. He may still have been right literally too, but I do not know. I just find it all interesting.

As Neo would say, "Whoa!"

[myboynoah]

Originally Posted by Dan

YOU are Lucifer! Yes you!

Dan, I'm going to have to give your ideas further consideration.

That said, I was right there with you when you called fusnik "Lucifer."

:wink:

[Dan]

... let me clarify ...

The body is a great and wonderful thing. Without it we cannot receive a fulness of joy (D&C 93). The point I am making is that the body must be dictated to by the spirit, as that is the way of the spiritual man. The natural man lives in a way in which the spirit is enslaved by the body and its appatites. Clearly we are entitled to enjoy carnal pleasures, but we have to keep such pleasures within proper bounds. Married sex is quite proper and important and is within the bounds set by the Lord. Adam and Eve (body and spirit) are commanded to be entwined as one. That is the way it is meant to be. There is no fulness if they are separated.

But to further our symbolism for marriage ... garments represent the veil between you and God. Now think for a moment, with pure intent, at the beautify symbolic act of a husband and wife removing garments (i.e., removing the veil between them and the Father, and joining together in complete physical oneness and exstacy. That is the ultimate physical act that symbolizes oneness of Adam and Eve (body and spirit) beyond the veil and in the presence of the Father.

[fusnik11]

Originally Posted by Dan

The body is a great and wonderful thing. Without it we cannot receive a fulness of joy (D&C 93). The point I am making is that the body must be dictated to by the spirit, as that is the way of the spiritual man. The natural man lives in a way in which the spirit is enslaved by the body and its appatites. Clearly we are entitled to enjoy carnal pleasures, but we have to keep such pleasures within proper bounds.

what exactly are you talking about here dan? the answer may seem obvious but let me explain....

if one simply abstains from doing the wrong things, pre-marital sex, drinking, stealing, etc, which most people do, they aren't necessarily growing to spiritual adults.

[Dan]

... that having a body and desires of the flesh is NOT a bad thing. It is very good. We are instructed clearly in scripture that without our body we cannot achieve a fulness of joy. The body and the desires of the flesh are important tools for us to help us progress and become a spiritual man.

We are entitled to enjoy temporal, flesh pleasures. In fact we (in the garden of Eden) are explicitly told to partake of all that is provided to us and enjoy it. Except we were told to stay away from one thing, the fruit of the ToKoGaE. We are supposed to stay away from it because the fruit represents, on one level of spiritual understanding at least, the illusion that clouds the vision of the natural man. We are all born into this world as natural men. As an infant we learn to, above all, desire personal comfort (warmth, food, sleep, cuddling/love, etc.). None of these things are inherently bad, as we are meant to enjoy them. What is "bad" is that these desires are our motivation and purpose (IOW, these are the things that motivate the natural man, and all of the actions of the natural man can be traced back to his desire to satisfy these types of emotions and pleasures).

We are told that we cannot serve two masters. This is true. If we serve God, our motivation and purpose is to love one another. All that we do/think/say will be dictated by this core motivation. The spiritual man is motivated by the love of God that is bestowed upon him. The spiritual man serves God as his master.

If we serve the devil, our motivation is the desires of the flesh. Most live this way. It is tough to explain as it looks like we cover fine lines while discussing it, but at the core of the individual, there is not fine line. They are either motivated by the desires of the flesh and therefore serve mammon.

Let me give an example. A natural man is the kind of man who is always worried about the future. He tries to get the best job to secure the most income to get more things to have a more comfortable life, and maybe even save for the future. This man's actions and thoughts and motivations for doing things usually hinge upon his ability to maintain or increase existing physical wealth and pleasures. If a series of mishaps are incurred, the gut reaction of this man will be horror at the prospect of losing what has been obtained. "Why is this happening to me?" "What did I do wrong to deserve this?" "What will people think of me now?" are examples of the types of questions he would constantly ponder. Fear and doubt would fill the man's heart and mind as he struggles to think how what he has lost can be regained. Ultimately it is the fear of losing the comforts and things of the world is the person's motivation. Ironically, these types of experiences can be a great catalyst for helping a person change paradigms and facilitate spiritual growth.

Now lest look at an example of the spiritual man. Outwardly, the natural man described above and the spiritual man may not appear much different. The spiritual man, being prudent and wise, will also try to secure income and property as they are necessary for this world. He will also, hopefully, save for the future. There is nothing inherently wrong with these things. They are good if done in wisdom and with proper motivation. When the misfortune happens, there will be some regret, anturally, as the spiritual man is still mortal and enjoys physical pleasure (which pleasure is "good"). But the difference is that the spiritual man understands at his core that the purpose of life is to learn to love one another, above all else. The loss of tremendous physical comforts is of minor concern. Instead of lament, the spirtual man realizes all things happen for a purpose. All things that 'happen' to the spiritual man are reasons to rejoice, even things that people would normally think are "bad" things. The reason why they are events in which to rejoice is because trials (I know this is easy to say) are blessings. Trials help us grow in ways that we cannot otherwise. (D&C 122). The spiritual man does not lament them, rather he embraces them and asks "what is it I can learn from this that is of value" or "how will this event strengthen my faith by more reliance on the Lord" etc. Just as the Lord told Adam and Eve to experince and enjoy ALL things, we are to embrace and 'enjoy' all things that 'happen' to us and learn from them. The one thing that we are not supposed to embrace is the fruit of the ToKoGaE, as the fruit of that tree represents the illusions we get confused with that maintain our inward core the way the natural man described in the example above does.

Now I don't want to get into a discussion of the merits of all of the things I said in my example. The whole point is to try to illustrate the fundamental, yet monumental, difference between the spiritual man and the natural man in their outlook. They each serve different masters and, therefore, have different core personalities. The story of Job is the story of a "spiritual man" who embraces misfortune so as to learn from it, whereas Job's friends and others in the story represent the mentality of the natural man.

[All-American]

I've noticed the symbolism before, but I'm not so sure that it adds any weight to the Adam-God theory.

The issue with that theory never was, from my understanding, a complete fabrication or misrepresentation, but reading too much into the implications of both the symbolism and what had been taught by Joseph Smith. In fact, I'm missing the connection here between the theory and the symbolism-- could somebody fill me in?

As for the carnal v. spiritual discussion, this never bothered me tremendously. The idea that we should shun all worldly pleasures is self-evidently incorrect-- would somebody be given a gift with the stipulation that he never open the box? The issue has always been the correct application of the gifts we have been given in order to build ourselves spiritually.