Are you *sure* marriage is worthwhile?

[outlier]

I don't mean this as a personal affront to anyone here. Honest.

I personally know one active member -- a total of *one* -- who admits that married life isn't all that great. Loves his kids, doesn't like living with his wife so much. The thing is -- he's the only one I know who has it bad enough to overcome the layers of self-deceit that seem to frequently be applied.

Hold on, don't crucify me yet. I'm not accusing anyone personally or saying it's impossible to be happily married.

What I'm saying is that I know *one person* who admits to being somewhat unhappy in his marriage (in truth, I think he's far, *far* more than "somewhat unhappy", but even he doesn't admit to much more than that). But I know many, many more who *are* unhappy in their marriage, but just haven't allowed themselves to realize that.

Hear me out first.

My real contention is merely this: there are a far larger number of members of the church for whom marriage isn't that great than there are who admit (to themselves first of all) that their marriage for them isn't that great. I'm not trying to lay down stats or percentages, just this concept. Granted, my assertion is based on a reasonably small sample of people whom I personally know and there are plenty of selection factors involved there, but still, this seems to be the case.

My theory: In a culture like the LDS culture in which family and marriage is so heavily stressed and so socially important, there is every pressure in the world to be "happily married". Therefore, a person in the church will all but always give marriage the benefit of the doubt. They will have a tendency to look on the situation favorably because they have to in order to maintain social credibility. There's very little incentive to look at the situation objectively -- it only seems to happen once self-preservation is on the line (or when the marriage itself -- for whatever reason -- threatens social standing).

Anyway. I guess that's all I got. And a strong counter-contention, I guess, is that even if it is a bunch of self-deceit keeping LDS couples together, then these people are probably getting a greater benefit from their self-deceit than they would from any objective, realistic introspection anyway. Certainly, I think society (and Mormon society in particular) benefits from this self-deception and, frankly, if humans weren't predisposed to self-deception, I'm guessing we'd mostly have killed ourselves by now after realizing there's no rational reason to believe that tomorrow's going to be any better than today.

Still, when I hear statements about the greatness of marriage, it makes me wonder whether this perception of the institution isn't the result of an en masse self-deception. And frankly it interests me particularly and personally being (a) unmarried and (b) unskilled at avoiding perceiving reality.

Thanks for the audience. I'd be ecstatic if someone could offer some solid objective and hyper-rational counterarguments.

o

[non sequitur]

I do agree that marriage and family are oversold in the Church. I have talked with more than one person in the Church that has told me that they love their kids but are not that crazy about their marriages. But they stay in the marriage for the sake of the kids and to avoid the stigma of divorce.

I also look at a lot of my nieces and nephews and how casually they decide to get married, and it concerns me. It's almost like they think that as long as they live righteously every thing will work out in the end. Marriage is tough and I honestly don't think it's for everyone.

[MikeWaters]

I have no illusions that Mormon marriages are perfect. Repeated talks from bishops, stake presidents and GA's to be kinder to your wives.

Someone is talking in their ear.

But that's just a superficial layer.

I don't know that mormon men are less happy than average. But sometimes I wonder if mormon women are. They have fewer choices, due to the culture.

[VAX77]

I have to say that when I look at the "big Picture" perspective of marriage and my marriage in general, it is great. The truth is, it is great not because every day is great and because it doesnt take a hell of a lot of work and sometimes pain or what have you, but because in the end, when two people can come together and work towards a common goal, you feel fulfilled, at least I do. My greatest experiences in sports/life/mission all had their crappy moments, in fact much of it sucked. But when you look back at it, you realize it is all worth it. My wife and I have are very close to another couple who are pretty truthful and blunt about their relationship. They openly speak of their troubles and are not fake. It is a breathe of fresh air and I think it is pretty cool. We try to be like that too, not being obnoxious, but being open with those we are close to.

A long story short, marriage is hard, very hard. Sometimes it sucks and sometimes you are on cloud nine. I will say that it is hard enough with someone you love and care about. I cannot imagine it with someone I lost interest with. My wife, for as much as I frustrate her and she frustrates me, is the one person that keeps me going. I would not trade it for the world but I wouldnt say everyday was rosy either...

[ute4ever]

Originally Posted by MikeWaters

I don't know that mormon men are less happy than average. But sometimes I wonder if mormon women are. They have fewer choices, due to the culture.

One of the statistics that the anti's love to tell is that the highest prescription rate of uppers like Prozac sold per capita is in Utah county.

[RockyBalboa]

In my conversations with some Bishops, 2 of them my brothers, they've told me that nearly every single person in their office who has confided in them that they are unhappy in their marriage, and that's it is almost always the wife.

With those who are divorce attorneys and have dealt with LDS clients....I believe SoCalCoug., Archaea, with those who are in the church would you say this is true based on your experience? And what I mean is, are you becoming more stunned at how easy people are giving up, particularly when it comes to the women where something really isn't that big of a deal, but to them it's the worst thing in history?

I guess what I'm trying to say is it seems there is a growing epidemic of women who get in their circles of friends, gossip, what have you, and suddenly feel they deserve more and aren't realizing that they actually have a whole lot. My personal opinion is this is a growing epidemic in the church and in general. All you have to do is watch the "Women are Victims Channel"...i.e..Lifetime or the Oprah show or something to that effect and hardly a day will go by that programs like these aren't telling or preaching to women in a variety of forms that they are victims.

Now,,,,I think the subject of pornography among men and the rampant use of it cannot be ignored when it comes to unhappy marriages whether in the church or not, but I'd be willing to bet that the majority of unhappy marriages in the church also stems from the poisoning effect that porn has on them and dulls their ability to be intimate, kind and loving.

So in short,,,I think it's a combination of 2 things.....#1...Men are into porn too much,,,some women too,,but mostly men and #2...Women have a ton of unrealistic expectations and when things get tough for the guy instead of getting in the trenches with him, they'd rather bolt.

Am I off here?

[non sequitur]

Originally Posted by ute4ever

One of the statistics that the anti's love to tell is that the highest prescription rate of uppers like Prozac sold per capita is in Utah county.

I think the relatively high use of prescription drugs like Prozac in the LDS community is because members are not self-medicating themselves with alcohol.

[ute4ever]

Wasn't it Isaiah who said the latter day daughters of Zion would be haughty, walking with stretched-forth necks (pride) and ornamenting themselves, etc.

'Tis much more popular to be a career woman playing the field.

[Hazzard]

About half of my friends appear to be moderately happy in marriage, and other half appear to be miserable. Only one or two actually appear to be happier than they were before they were married.

Of the half who appear to be miserable, it is as if their wives have stolen their personalities and beaten them down emotionally to the point that they no longer have the will to protest. These guys are shells of their former selves. I have no idea how they stayed married. It is sad to see them like this.

I am getting to the point that I am willing to except mild misery as my constant companion in order to get married, have children, and live out the rest of my life. Is this the way it was meant to be?

[Archaea]

It is my belief based on experience and observation that so many people don't give a good, honest effort to be a good marriage partner.

Many people, LDS or not, don't make being a great partner at the top of their list. They want to be a great professional, a great athlete, a great student, funny, popular, great looking, great in bed, charitable, but rarely have I met somebody who states, "I want to be a great spouse."

If that were the objective, we would see more happiness in marriage. In short, our priorities are skewed.

Factors regarding openess, expectations and reality probably make us more aware of our "unhappiness".

Much of our "unhappiness" is tied to life not meeting expectations; we expected a bed of roses, when in fact it's mostly thorns with a view of a few roses.

If our priority was to develop the talents necessary to be a great spouse, worked on being a great spouse, listened to the Spirit, we would be rewarded with more happiness. Happiness is part of the journey and a reward for proper goals.

Wow, what a diatribe.

The answer is not simple. I see a lot of unhappy couples. However, I see a lot of couples not setting the proper goals and not doing what they need to do in order to be happy. They expect Santa Claus to deliver it in a nice package of the perfect mate without applying it for their own needs.

It does require TWO selfless individuals, not one. So one bad apple can mess it up for the both of them.

Here's the question: would you love your spouse enough even if she or he stopped going to Church and stopped being a good member, but still was reliable in most other aspects of the marriage?

Depending on your answer, I will be able to tell if you love your spouse. It's easy to love when the spouse goes down the perfect path, not so easy if you aren' t on it. For marriage to work, you need the unconditional love. Few really practice that.