A FANTASTIC read! Careful, once you start you just can't stop...

[Cali Coug]

http://pewforum.org/events/?EventID=148

This is incredibly interesting and engrossing. It is very lengthy, but fascinating (though in some ways depressing).

[Archaea]

Fascinating comment here:

"Christian groups have been as forceful as any in trying to put down the Mormons, I think, partly to protect their position as respectable philosophically. I once in a meeting asked a group of evangelical Christians – a small group; Mark Noll was there, Richard Mouw, various other distinguished people – why don't we join forces in making a case that there are grounds for believing in the existence of God simply because the spiritual life confirms it? People believe there is a God because it's manifest to them spiritually.

They really didn't want any of that. They wanted to maintain their philosophical, rational claims, defending their miracles on sort of a quasi-scientific basis. They did not want to get in bed with the Mormons and their strictly subjective view of things. So there is kind of a gap intellectually. Mormonism has never embraced philosophy; it is not particularly interested in philosophy. I would say our most natural ally among the philosophers, frankly, is William James whose view of God is very close to the Mormon view of God."

[Tex]

Wow, that's quite the discussion. I'm about 3/4 the way through and am already feeling way too guilty for wasting my employer's time on reading it. Absolutely riveting. I'll have to post comments some other time.

I want to disagree with you, Cali, just a little (I can't resist). Is it depressing? I see this as the next step in the church coming "forth out of obscurity and out of darkness" or "out of the wilderness" (D&C 1:30, 5:14). For the church to truly become a world influence--far beyond what it is now--this must ultimately happen. The ideas of Mormonism must be put under a very large and sometimes uncomfortable microscope and be thoroughly vetted.

The 2002 Olympics and the Romney campaign may do more to burn off the misconceptions of the world than 500,000 missionaries could do. There will be the Weisbergs of the world who make complete asses of themselves in their conclusions, but much more I think we will reach folks like Sally Quinn who's only familiarity with Mormons is Martha Beck.

What a fantastic opportunity this is. Cheers to Bushman for representing us so well.

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by Tex

Wow, that's quite the discussion. I'm about 3/4 the way through and am already feeling way too guilty for wasting my employer's time on reading it. Absolutely riveting. I'll have to post comments some other time.

I want to disagree with you, Cali, just a little (I can't resist). Is it depressing? I see this as the next step in the church coming "forth out of obscurity and out of darkness" or "out of the wilderness" (D&C 1:30, 5:14). For the church to truly become a world influence--far beyond what it is now--this must ultimately happen. The ideas of Mormonism must be put under a very large and sometimes uncomfortable microscope and be thoroughly vetted.

The 2002 Olympics and the Romney campaign may do more to burn off the misconceptions of the world than 500,000 missionaries could do. There will be the Weisbergs of the world who make complete asses of themselves in their conclusions, but much more I think we will reach folks like Sally Quinn who's only familiarity with Mormons is Martha Beck.

What a fantastic opportunity this is. Cheers to Bushman for representing us so well.

Depressing, but not in the sense you think I mean. I am ecstatic that such a conference is going on, and I thought Bushman's answers were sensational. The depressing part, for me, was hearing the total ignorance of some of the most highly educated individuals in America on the topic of the Mormon church. Sally Quinn's comments were particularly disturbing, for me. To think that someone so educated could be influenced by a single book written by a disenchanted former member was surprising to me. I hope journalists in general don't form opinions on other topics in the way they form opinions on the church.

[Archaea]

another interesting quote:

Yeah, it's one of the mysteries of how it works in that Mormons, both individually and as an official church, have always rebuffed attempts to systematize ideas. There is no creed. If a book is published called Mormon Doctrine that tries to outline Mormon doctrine, it's repudiated by the president of the church. Over and over again, people go back and say, look, follow the Scriptures, read the Scriptures – which in a way begs the question of how you interpret the Scriptures. But every effort to do doctrine systematically is resisted. In that way, it's kind of an anti-intellectual thing against systematic theology.

When it comes to things like contraception, that comes out of the united feelings of the general authorities of the church, which consists of the president of the church and the Twelve Apostles and other general authorities, who probably are what you're looking for if you're asking about the teaching authority of the church. There are Catholic versions of these hierarchical figures, are there not? The people in Rome who interpret the doctrine for the benefit of the church?

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by Archaea

another interesting quote:

Yeah, it's one of the mysteries of how it works in that Mormons, both individually and as an official church, have always rebuffed attempts to systematize ideas. There is no creed. If a book is published called Mormon Doctrine that tries to outline Mormon doctrine, it's repudiated by the president of the church. Over and over again, people go back and say, look, follow the Scriptures, read the Scriptures – which in a way begs the question of how you interpret the Scriptures. But every effort to do doctrine systematically is resisted. In that way, it's kind of an anti-intellectual thing against systematic theology.

When it comes to things like contraception, that comes out of the united feelings of the general authorities of the church, which consists of the president of the church and the Twelve Apostles and other general authorities, who probably are what you're looking for if you're asking about the teaching authority of the church. There are Catholic versions of these hierarchical figures, are there not? The people in Rome who interpret the doctrine for the benefit of the church?

I was going to post that quote as well, given the extensive discussion on the board on the issues it touches upon.

[Tex]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

Depressing, but not in the sense you think I mean. I am ecstatic that such a conference is going on, and I thought Bushman's answers were sensational. The depressing part, for me, was hearing the total ignorance of some of the most highly educated individuals in America on the topic of the Mormon church. Sally Quinn's comments were particularly disturbing, for me. To think that someone so educated could be influenced by a single book written by a disenchanted former member was surprising to me. I hope journalists in general don't form opinions on other topics in the way they form opinions on the church.

No, I got that from your comments.

I guess I do expect that kind of inadequate preparation on the part of the press--and I'm not going off on a "liberal media" political tear here. You don't really appreciate how easily the media can get a story wrong until you hear them report on one, the details of which you are familiar with.

Journalists are just human beings and subject to biases like anyone else. What I find encouraging is that Quinn didn't close the door once she closed the book. I hope others out there will remain equally open-minded.

On a different note: who knew that John Beck had apostatized and gone gay? And here all this time I thought he was a good Mormon QB.

Har har har.

[SoCalCoug]

I absolutely love how Bushman handled and expressed himself. I haven't read his Joseph Smith biography, but if it's expressed in a similar manner, I'm looking forward to it.

My impression of the whole thing was that there were a number of brilliant people involved in the discussion, not the least of which was Bushman. (There were also some not-so-brilliant people).

I think Romney would do well to seek advice from Bushman on handling the Mormon issues in his campaign.

[Cali Coug]

Originally Posted by Tex

No, I got that from your comments.

I guess I do expect that kind of inadequate preparation on the part of the press--and I'm not going off on a "liberal media" political tear here. You don't really appreciate how easily the media can get a story wrong until you hear them report on one, the details of which you are familiar with.

Journalists are just human beings and subject to biases like anyone else. What I find encouraging is that Quinn didn't close the door once she closed the book. I hope others out there will remain equally open-minded.

On a different note: who knew that John Beck had apostatized and gone gay? And here all this time I thought he was a good Mormon QB.

Har har har.

True- Quinn didn't close the door and did seem to be somewhat open to the possibility that her perceptions were misconceptions.

I wish I could have attended this conference. I hope there are many more like it- which is almost inevitable. They certainly assembled an impressive panel, and it was brilliant to make the panel comprised largely of journalists. Bushman was the perfect face for the conference. He is well-versed in LDS theology and culture, but doesn't come off sounding like an apologist. His answers were candid and clear, something most LDS scholars would have a more difficult time with when faced with such questions, I think.

[Sleeping in EQ]

Originally Posted by Cali Coug

Depressing, but not in the sense you think I mean. I am ecstatic that such a conference is going on, and I thought Bushman's answers were sensational. The depressing part, for me, was hearing the total ignorance of some of the most highly educated individuals in America on the topic of the Mormon church. Sally Quinn's comments were particularly disturbing, for me. To think that someone so educated could be influenced by a single book written by a disenchanted former member was surprising to me. I hope journalists in general don't form opinions on other topics in the way they form opinions on the church.

I was actually heartened by the questions and discussion. Alot of those folks really want to be able to treat Mormonism fairly.